secondhand car market - is it quiet?

bmwcare wrote: Dergside wrote: I always ring the service manager at the servicing dealer to cross check the history in the book against the dealer records.  Its still not a completely foolproof method of verification (still open to unscrupulous abuse) but its one of the pieces of information to consider in deciding it a car is right. Agreed, but I meant that "genuine" service histories can be got... Like everything - it depends on how thorough they were... One exception would be if the previous owner travelled a lot... And every stamp was by a different dealer.

I'm confused, how can a "genuine" service history be got? For this to be the case someone at the dealer must be handing out service stamps and then updating the computer system to say the car has been serviced when it hasn't. This in itself will leave a financial hole in the dealers accounts as they will not have recieved the money for a service that the computer system says was carried out. I have however checked a cars history and found that the dealer who's stamp is in the book claims never to have seen the car, although I was told buy the service manager at one dealership that the computer system is not very reliable. I also know of one BMW tech who services BMWs in his own time and gets the books stamped at the dealership he works at.

One of the reasons I bought my car is that the history was both backed up by the dealer concerned (the same one since new) but also by a stack of invoices which must be a lot harder if not impossible to fake.

Dergside wrote: The hardest part for most people is to walk away from a car that has question marks, especially if the price is "attractive".  Generally in going to view a car people have made a bit of an emotional investment in considering the pro's and con's of the specific example and why it suits their needs and to walk away empty handed is phsycologically difficult.

Totally agree.


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Spot on, which is why many sellers lie or mislead in their adverts because they know that once the person is actually there they stand quite a good chance of selling it, especially if the buyer is buying a 'dream' car. I cannot count the number of BMWs that I have seen advertised with a Full BMW history only to find that half the stamps are from a speciallst.

Take a mate with you. As he is not emotionally involved in the process he or even she is far more likely to be objective about the cars condition.

bmwcare wrote: As an aside, I don't think service histories are worth the paper they're written on...

I always ring the service manager at the servicing dealer to cross check the history in the book against the dealer records.  Its still not a completely foolproof method of verification (still open to unscrupulous abuse) but its one of the pieces of information to consider in deciding it a car is right.

No method of checking is 100% so you need to look for a series of indicators that fit together to say yeah nor nay to buying any particular car. 

The hardest part for most people is to walk away from a car that has question marks, especially if the price is "attractive".  Generally in going to view a car people have made a bit of an emotional investment in considering the pro's and con's of the specific example and why it suits their needs and to walk away empty handed is phsycologically difficult.

milltown wrote: bmwcare wrote: Guide is that the car was interfered with... Either it was clocked incorrectly or secondhand modules were fitted.. Dealers as a rule will not touch cars with the red dot.. BMWcare bmwcare@eircom.net I was about to post asking if what I'd heard about a dealer being able to check the mileage with the key was true, when I saw this. If I may ask an obvious question: The spare key for my car would not be near the ignition for months on end so is always likely to be a few thousand miles shy of the actual mileage. Assuming this is updated when the key is put in the ignition, what is the point of storing the info there in the first place? Maybe I'm missing something obvious but it's late!

To answer your direct question - why?
It's to check what's in the EWS module. The dealer uses a keyreader for this. This is all about warranty - lets say you have a problem and it's a warranty job - you hand over your key to the service department and go have a coffee...
They read the key, note the mileage, start the car and bring it in - and read the key again. If there's a difference that can't be explained - you lose your warranty - period.


It's a bit involved - and CAN be got around. I'm obviously not going to explain that here...

The theory is that the Mileage is stored in the EWS [immobiliser].

1. When you insert the key in the ignition the mileage in the EWS is written to the key. This is always the highest mileage and does not reflect what is in the Cluster [IKE/KOM] or Light Control Module [LKM/LKZ]
2. Most checks only include the LKM and not the EWS or Key.

Using your example - whatever key started the car last will have the highest mileage stored on it. So, if reading the key - the dealer puts the key in the ignition, turns it on, then off... Then reads key.

This information is directly accessible from the EWS module, but, to my knowledge the Dealer tool [GT1] can't access it directly - I may be wrong about that...

I check the EWS module directly. Newer models, E60/E90 use a different system which I'm not totally up to date on...

The hidden one - in Autobox [EGS] on a lot of E39s - the dealer CAN'T check with the dealer equipment...

However, it must be stated - ALL of these CAN be tampered with to show incorrect mileage - just because a mileage verification check "passes" it's not 100%. But most of the characters that are doing it are doing it for profit and will not/can't spend the extra to do a complete rewrite of modules.

As an aside, I don't think service histories are worth the paper they're written on... It's so easy to obtain one... Previous owners are often complicit in it too - so you can't believe them...

Also, a serious amount of cars are tampered with "the other way around" - they're clocked forward... Main reason is BIK - I've got one Mercedes customer that has a S320CDi showing over 100K but I know for a fact that it has less than 20K done... He did it himself for a BIK reduction...

Or, the company employee who gets the opportunity to buy the "Company Car" [not as common as it once was] - the employee clocks it forward to buy it cheaper, then clocks it back to less than it had to get more for it...

It's fu*king endless...

What are we left with?? Judge the car on the car alone. I'd always prefer a well minded one with 100K than one that wasn't with 50K...

BMWcare
bmwcare@eircom.net



Edited by bmwcare

Back on topic.

We finally sold my wife's Citroen Picasso. Well, more like gave it away. 8600 in the end.  Took well over 2 months i think.

I have a friend selling a mint 2004 Nissan XTrail. She's practically giving that away! (Around 22k)

Guide is that the car was interfered with...

Either it was clocked incorrectly or secondhand modules were fitted..

Dealers as a rule will not touch cars with the red dot..

BMWcare

bmwcare@eircom.net

The red dot issue is varied & strange - I've never seen it to happen too easily but have seen it.

To answer your questtion - NO.
You can have different mileage on the keys/LKE/IKE and no red dot. You can also have a red dot when they match...

BMWcare

bmwcare wrote: 1. Person A in the UK buys a car and gets the odometer "corrected" [no disclosure] 2. Person B [from Irl] buys the car in good faith not knowing 3. Person C buys the car from person B in good faith 4. Person C finds out it was clocked... Who's liable??? Is perfectly innocent Person B liable??? Yes. [and he must try to get redress from Person A in UK] BMWcare bmwcare@eircom.net

I went to the cops, was told tough merd !

Nothing more they can do if the car and "clocking" originated from the UK.

Cool. How very clever of BMW. How long have they been doing it? I'm looking at some '94-'95 e36 M3's at the minute. Luckily though they seem to have very good service history's.

@bmwcare: Are you able to tell if the car has been clocked just by reading the on board diagnostics? If so how much does it cost? How long does it take, and can you come out to inspect a car or does it have to be brought to your garage?

 

Its not illegal to sell a clocked cara, nor is it illegal to clock it. Its just illegal to not disclose the fact that it has been clocked.