Ditching the AFM

*drool*

Never known alot about webbers etc, but these might be able to help.

https://secure9.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp? CS=ireland&BusType=BtoC&Count1=305996119&Count2= 223136544&CategoryID=42&Target=products%2Easp

https://secure9.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp? CS=ireland&BusType=BtoC&Count1=756923854&Count2= 674064278

Drew540i wrote: Lots of people talk big figures but oddly don't have any dyno sheets to back it up with. M30, 300 bhp? That's a bit more involved than bodging some M3 wings onto an old E30! No Way. For a start, you'll find the M30 has six very effective rev limiters called con rods. At much over 7000 rpm they will break across the beam which is why the M5/M6 engine has special rods which are lighter, stronger and longer (meaning you cannot use them with M30 pistons). Alpha N is okay but all too often it can't take barometric pressure into account - rich one day, lean the next. The AMM thing isn't the obvious solution on an M30 because there are other things to do first. The first is a good rechip where you'll find about 10 bhp+ straight away and much better driveability. As has been dyno proven this gives much more power per ££ than anything else. Second is the cam which is so tame as to be beyond belief. Something like a Piper 270 degree cam is just right. With a cam and chip you'll get about 230-240 bhp. From what I've seen the wild claims made for various exhaust manifolds don't stack up on the dyno - certainly not for what they cost! Once you've done a cam and chip THEN it's time to think about air mass meters - yeah right, 20 bhp my a*se. Not a hope in hell! Air mass meters are more about throttle response than top end power although you will gain a little (@5-8 bhp?). You can have an air mass meter the size of a dustbin but you can't get any more air past that throttle disc. Think about the air flow meter with the flap right open though. Outside diameter 76mm but the hole that counts is only 63mm x 47mm which does pose a restriction. The old air flow meter isn't a bad old thing really. Bosch recon ones are actually new units sold in a different box. The same thing in another box is sold for twice the price via BMW. The guy to speak to about this is Andy335Touring on E30 Zone who has built a much better system that does everything on a throttle switch and sensors. Witha cam and some mild headwork he's up to 260 brake.

oh no, back to the sae thing! its a target!!!

before you get to the 7000, the clutches don't like anything the wrong side of 6500 really.

bodging the wings on? thanks drew....., have a better look at the photo's. considering i'm no bodyshop, they look near as damn it original to me, whilst im not trying to make it an m3, the wings fit seamlessly with the car.

engine wise, 300 or m "TARGET" would require a complete engine re-build, and re-think. this includes conrods obviously, arp headbolts etc etc! and i havn't even started about rod bolts, pistons, flywheel etc etc.

Comments on the amm, afm, maf etc make sense to me. i wouldnt expect 20bhp from the change over. oh, the heads, done, and running a piper 288 cam anyway.

I've got an Emerald ECU that uses a TPS for it's main load input for N/A engines or a MAP sensor for F/I.

When i swapped from a Super Chip to the Emerald i gained nothing at the top end, where it improved things was how eager the engine responds to light/part throttle movements which made the engine seems more torquey. TBH i was a little disapointed with the gains V's the the cost involved but what it has given me is the option to use TB's or F/I and to be able to tune to get the best out of any future mods.

Motronic ECU's/AFM's are perfectly fine for a lightly modified N/A(ported head/cam/six branch/etc) engine with a suitable chip, if you start looking at TB's or F/I then it becomes a big hinderance.

If i were looking at a stand alone ECU then it would be a toss up in between Emerald and Mega squirt. Emerald seems to be a bit more user friendly but more expensive than M/S. M/S is cheaper but it's slightly more involved/techy.

If you fancy the M/S but don't want to install or map it then theres a well respected chap on the E30zone forum called Ant who has installed and mapped a few of these ECU's on Turbo and N/A E30's with good results.

With an M30 i'd say to keep things fairly cheap a chip and cam perk the old M30 up a treat and give about 240bhp depending on which cam/chip is used. Head work only going to push it up to around 250bhp, from then on it's the law of deminising(sp?) returns V's cost.

I think a 300bhp+ M30 is possible but it will cost big time money and will/might involve some of the things below.

3.8 M5 crank (1400 quid plus VAT new plus macheening costs to get it to work in an M30)

custom pistons 11:1 C/R, may be slightly bigger bore for a few more cc's ?

Custom con rods

BIG cam high 290's to low 300's

Head ported in conjunction with the TB's

M5 or Jenvy TB's with a well designed plenum and air filter set up

Six branch manifold and exhaust from some one who knows their stuf

stand alone ECU(but it's only as good as the person thats mapping it so chose well !)

But back from the land of dreams...........an M5 engine will get you your 300bhp+ if it's got to be N/A. Or theres a chap on the Zone who's just Turbo charged his 335, just 5-6psi of boost has got him around 300-330bhp. It's intercooled and running on a M/S Ecu mapped by Ant, he's run out of head room on his 30lb injectors or it would have ment more boost.

At the mo my M30 has a ported head/inlet manifold,Schrick 284/280 cam, Emerald ECU with no AFM/MAF which was mapped by Dave Walker formally of CCC mag and now PPC mag.

Soon it shall have an Alpina B10 bottom end(Mahle 10.6:1 C/R pistons and M5 con rods) and this twin 60mm TB mod.

Wasn't there a silver E28 with a fitted E34 3.8 lump in TBMW a few years back?? This thread just reminded me of that.....I think that would be amazing....(having owned a 3.8) an E24 that goes like a E34 3.8.

Good on ya Check it out!

P.S...I'm happy with my stock e24 as there's alway's the 450hp Dodge to use!

I did speak to jenvey about the socks, and they said the same,in that i would loose power, and an airbox was still the best way to go.

Did you weld that yourself? and what kit? i know you weld practically any metal, but alloys, and aluminium etc tend to be much more involved. Love the job on the plenum though, very nice.

I'm running a bored out throttle body now (standard bored out) and the respnseis much improved. I havnt noticed it being quicker, it just feels more eager. I would consider it a great "driveability" mod. Not having to pre-load the accelerator when pulling out etc makes the mcar a much better drive.

Knit, i agree, and this will be my limiting factor. I know 300 is achievable, it may just be that it idles at 2k, and comes on song 6000>7000 which isnt a nice drive. The low down torque of the m30 is great, so different to what i have been used to (the 2.5 m20). I will take the engine as far as i can, whilst playing a balancing act with "driveability vs power".

That tube type manifold. I have that. Its basically the same as the 745i turbo manifold as well. great for adapting for a turbo conversion though!

Considering thison the six, as i won't be turboing the 335i, i have the full kit left over.......

(tells himself he must get the 335i finished first, or all friends and relatives will crucify him).

Yes, its generally said that you get 35>40% running 5>6psi on a standard engine. Anything more and you start to push yur luck.

There is a company that wanted to see how far they could go with a standard engine. I've got to find which site again. But they claim to have bolted a turbo on, and increased the pressure, right up until they had 624 rwhp. this sounds a phenominal amount. This was when the engine decided to pop a piston. Probably find evenrything else was failing around the same point, but didnt critical until then. They do full m30 turbo conversions, but are american.

What truth is in their number i really don't know.

With the down pipe i think i would have to have a turbo-relocation pipe, as next to the engine looks too tight. the downpipe would then be split to go either side of the steering rack,much like the e30. very tight fit.....

Its something i am considering for the future, and will be cheaper than tuning the engine, unlike the 335, where i will doing just that. the 6 should end up a similar straight line speed to the 335 as the turbo should give me more power than all the mods to the 335i.

I have seen a few m30's (218bhp) running a cliamed 6>10psi and output between 300 and 365 from a standard lump. although higher figures are no good for drag srips as the standard cluth cooks itself.

I have the bmp metal head gasket, and arp bolts. This should be a good days work,but the see the m30's boost handling significantly improved. Again, not until i have done the 335i. On holiday next week, and the next as well. after that i hope to come back with "renewed enthusiasm" to get it finished.