Should be.

It simply replaces the air flow meter with a throttle potentiometre instead of the throttle switch plus a piggyback ecu with programmable maps.

Otherwise look at http://www.splitsec.com - www.splitsec.com who do a simpler version

Ian  

Thats come down in price. around 400 or so. WOuld be around 550 delivered with taxes etc though. Anyone had this? make much difference?

I need 2! one for the 635, and one for the 335!

So, this combined with air filter, and the 6 throttle bodies, you are approaching m635 territory prior to any head work.

looking at this: -

288 degree piper cam, head skimmed, ported polished, larger valves,

maf conversion,

tubular manifold, and full exhaust system,

6 throttle bodies,

k&n panel filter,

chip.

all this should see 300bhp from the m30 right? I am thinking that 280+ was seen without the chip, and the more agressive cam/ porting and polishing and maf, so the extra 20bhp shouldn't be that hard to come by?

300 bhp, M30

No chance, unless you are at 8000 rpm.

Splitsec may give 20 bhp on an M635 but on an 12v 3.5 I doubt it.  You just can't get the air in with the singl evale set up.

Air flow meter from bosch is 263 plus vat at discount of 40%, stealers quote 440 plus vat

Splitsec gives some tuneability which should create a good driving machine.  Alpha N is the way to go though.  May need to import from Maxx Alpha N in germany though.  1500 plus taxes plus set up (500) on rolling road if you fit it yourself.

single evale. exhaust valve?

could be right, i shall find out without some of these mods, and if i'm getting close see if it can be done. does the 24v make a huge difference over maximum sized 12v? would be awesome to go that far, but again, you are probably right. i bet i can get near 280 though.

time will tell.

1. buy an M635
2. fit a supercharger or turbo
3. put a bigger engine in

my post should say single valve i.e. 1 inlet and one exhaust per cylinder.

Limiting factor on the M88 (M635) engine is throttle body/plate size which runs at 46mm for each cylinder.  This would strangle the engine to around 320-330 bhp without porting the head and throttle bodies.  It is possible to fit 48 or even 50mm throttle bodies but this would only be of real benifit for high rpm applications. 

So comparing an m88 engine to the 12v m30 engine you need to consider inlet valve size and flow capability.  This is where having the single inlet valve per cylinder becomes restrictive.  You would probably need to go to max inlet valve size and some serious head porting plus high rpm to get anywhere near 300 bhp.

I think the M88 has 2 * 35mm inlet valves as standard exhaust are 27mm.  Work out the area that the inlet valve gives and compare to the area of the single valve in your 12v motor as a starting point.

Thanks for that ian. The 635 engine will get "hand me downs" from the 335i, but the 335i gets the full treatment being my primary project. Compression on the m30 can be increased alot, given its low standard form. The head i had done, has been done very well, by someone who primarily is a mini specialist. i will measure the valve sizes, but there is no way at all that larger valves could be fitted. looking at the chambers there is simply no more room. Porting is very good, and without going into reliability issues, the wall is as thin as i would take it without having to worry all the time.

With the 335i, i intend to get the rev limit to 7500, or 8000 anyway. with the 6, i'll just raise it to 6500 given the standard clutch, rockers etc.

Cost wise yes, i am approcahing an m3 engine anyway (evo), but will still have the reliability, cheapish parts, no vanos, and be able to install myself as i cannot be dealing with new vs old wiring looms.

to make full use omex engine management does seem the way to go, but to start with, im just bolting in a standard m30 engine to havesome fun with. that way i can get used to the brakin and handling without the power, and give the six a holiday for rust treatment, and a suspension overhaul.

Some group A CSL running the 3.5 and the Schnitzer 635 were running as much as 350bhp from the M30 engine. The problem was that the power was like an on off switch. The M30 does not do high revs. Mark Mclennan has a racing 635 with an almost group A engine running something in the region of 285 - 310bhp running 3 webber 45 carbs and it only revs to 7k, but does not like it much. To maintain reliability he has to keep changing the head bolts as they stretch when doing high revs for long and the engine then starts to suffer from engine starvation.

James

lol. its a plan. i never "planned" to learn to weld, and fit genuine saloon m3 wings to the convertible, but did.

I intend to ge the whole lump on the m30 overhauled, lightened and balanced. Im not in competition with alpina, or schnitzer. its just what i think, and its a project, i don't expect it to go to plan, but follow it roughly and get me somewhere near the 300 mark. I could fit a v12, indeed i considered it, but for 2000 reasons for and 2000 against i went with the m30. How i far i will get is anybodys guess. what i do know is that it will be about as far as a street engine can go.

AndyS wrote: As followers of TBMW magazine will know, they have an E30 M3 project car on which they have ditched the AFM for an Alpha N module. Is this mod available for the M30 as I'd like to get something a bit more 21st century than the Heath Robinson mouse trap currently sitting on my engine.

Getting back to the thread title.

Just received info regarding MAF sensor my M30/M88 engine.  These guys are well in to 745i Turbos but have recently developed a MAP sensor which replaces the pathetic flap arrangement.

Interestingly they can provide piggy back ecu's for both fuel map AND ignition.  I am seriously tempted as the the splitsec only does fuel map.  Going for the alpha N will cost 1500 this set up cost 650

http://scottiesharpe.com/store/ - http://scottiesharpe.com/store/

Ian

*drool*

Never known alot about webbers etc, but these might be able to help.

https://secure9.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=ireland&BusType=BtoC&Count1=305996119&Count2=223136544&CategoryID=42&Target=products%2Easp - https://secure9.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp? CS=ireland&BusType=BtoC&Count1=305996119&Count2= 223136544&CategoryID=42&Target=products%2Easp

https://secure9.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=ireland&BusType=BtoC&Count1=756923854&Count2=674064278 - https://secure9.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp? CS=ireland&BusType=BtoC&Count1=756923854&Count2= 674064278

there are cheaper ways if you want to go down the carb road, it just needs some lateral thought -

my six is a pet project , my main project is a spaceframe mini for which i am buliding a suzuki swift gti engine with munuki R1 carbs (motorcycle carbs). the inlet is made using the oringinal inlet manifold cut down to 20mm stumps. for the ignition i am having my ecu controlled dizzy made into a machincal one - its all very crude but effective.

the carbs cost £40 and are modular (they can be made into pairs) and the dizzy is costing me arround 250 mark (have not had it back yet)

the only expensive part is the set up time on the rollers but you need that with any other type of aftermarket set up anyway.

just somthing to mull over for you!

Drew540i wrote: Lots of people talk big figures but oddly don't have any dyno sheets to back it up with. M30, 300 bhp? That's a bit more involved than bodging some M3 wings onto an old E30! No Way. For a start, you'll find the M30 has six very effective rev limiters called con rods. At much over 7000 rpm they will break across the beam which is why the M5/M6 engine has special rods which are lighter, stronger and longer (meaning you cannot use them with M30 pistons). Alpha N is okay but all too often it can't take barometric pressure into account - rich one day, lean the next. The AMM thing isn't the obvious solution on an M30 because there are other things to do first. The first is a good rechip where you'll find about 10 bhp+ straight away and much better driveability. As has been dyno proven this gives much more power per ££ than anything else. Second is the cam which is so tame as to be beyond belief. Something like a Piper 270 degree cam is just right. With a cam and chip you'll get about 230-240 bhp. From what I've seen the wild claims made for various exhaust manifolds don't stack up on the dyno - certainly not for what they cost! Once you've done a cam and chip THEN it's time to think about air mass meters - yeah right, 20 bhp my a*se. Not a hope in hell! Air mass meters are more about throttle response than top end power although you will gain a little (@5-8 bhp?). You can have an air mass meter the size of a dustbin but you can't get any more air past that throttle disc. Think about the air flow meter with the flap right open though. Outside diameter 76mm but the hole that counts is only 63mm x 47mm which does pose a restriction. The old air flow meter isn't a bad old thing really. Bosch recon ones are actually new units sold in a different box. The same thing in another box is sold for twice the price via BMW. The guy to speak to about this is Andy335Touring on E30 Zone who has built a much better system that does everything on a throttle switch and sensors. Witha cam and some mild headwork he's up to 260 brake.

oh no, back to the sae thing! its a target!!!

before you get to the 7000, the clutches don't like anything the wrong side of 6500 really.

bodging the wings on? thanks drew....., have a better look at the photo's. considering i'm no bodyshop, they look near as damn it original to me, whilst im not trying to make it an m3, the wings fit seamlessly with the car.

engine wise, 300 or m "TARGET" would require a complete engine re-build, and re-think. this includes conrods obviously, arp headbolts etc etc! and i havn't even started about rod bolts, pistons, flywheel etc etc.

Comments on the amm, afm, maf etc make sense to me. i wouldnt expect 20bhp from the change over. oh, the heads, done, and running a piper 288 cam anyway.

I've got an Emerald ECU that uses a TPS for it's main load input for N/A engines or a MAP sensor for F/I.

When i swapped from a Super Chip to the Emerald i gained nothing at the top end, where it improved things was how eager the engine responds to light/part throttle movements which made the engine seems more torquey. TBH i was a little disapointed with the gains V's the the cost involved but what it has given me is the option to use TB's or F/I and to be able to tune to get the best out of any future mods.

Motronic ECU's/AFM's are perfectly fine for a lightly modified N/A(ported head/cam/six branch/etc) engine with a suitable chip, if you start looking at TB's or F/I then it becomes a big hinderance.

If i were looking at a stand alone ECU then it would be a toss up in between Emerald and Mega squirt. Emerald seems to be a bit more user friendly but more expensive than M/S. M/S is cheaper but it's slightly more involved/techy.

If you fancy the M/S but don't want to install or map it then theres a well respected chap on the E30zone forum called Ant who has installed and mapped a few of these ECU's on Turbo and N/A E30's with good results.

With an M30 i'd say to keep things fairly cheap a chip and cam perk the old M30 up a treat and give about 240bhp depending on which cam/chip is used. Head work only going to push it up to around 250bhp, from then on it's the law of deminising(sp?) returns V's cost.

I think a 300bhp+ M30 is possible but it will cost big time money and will/might involve some of the things below.

3.8 M5 crank (1400 quid plus VAT new plus macheening costs to get it to work in an M30)

custom pistons 11:1 C/R, may be slightly bigger bore for a few more cc's ?

Custom con rods

BIG cam high 290's to low 300's

Head ported in conjunction with the TB's

M5 or Jenvy TB's with a well designed plenum and air filter set up

Six branch manifold and exhaust from some one who knows their stuf

stand alone ECU(but it's only as good as the person thats mapping it so chose well !)

But back from the land of dreams...........an M5 engine will get you your 300bhp+ if it's got to be N/A. Or theres a chap on the Zone who's just Turbo charged his 335, just 5-6psi of boost has got him around 300-330bhp. It's intercooled and running on a M/S Ecu mapped by Ant, he's run out of head room on his 30lb injectors or it would have ment more boost.

At the mo my M30 has a ported head/inlet manifold,Schrick 284/280 cam, Emerald ECU with no AFM/MAF which was mapped by Dave Walker formally of CCC mag and now PPC mag.

Soon it shall have an Alpina B10 bottom end(Mahle 10.6:1 C/R pistons and M5 con rods) and this twin 60mm TB mod.

Andy, many thanks for the response. This is what i have been looking for. Have you heard of omex? their system is very good. My friends cousin editor for total vauxhall runs this on his costworth with great success.

I havnt had a chance to fully research the engine (been too busy with, but it will be running the 288 piper cam, and i have the six throttle bodies from the m5. These should help significantly. Omex engine management will help me remove bottlenecks i.e. maf etc, and allow a custom airbox setup.

TPS on the motronic system is just a W.O.T. for those who havnt looked into engine management. This is basically a throttle on/off switch, it doesnt tell the ecu where the throttle is merly if it is on or off of idle.

The engine has to be streetable, so i may end up with the means to reach such bhp, but not beable to run it "on the street" so to speak.

Check it out! wrote: Andy, many thanks for the response. This is what i have been looking for. Have you heard of omex? their system is very good. My friends cousin editor for total vauxhall runs this on his costworth with great success.

Yeah, i've heard of Omex but TBH i haven't got any experiance working with it. 

I havnt had a chance to fully research the engine (been too busy with, but it will be running the 288 piper cam, and i have the six throttle bodies from the m5. These should help significantly. Omex engine management will help me remove bottlenecks i.e. maf etc, and allow a custom airbox setup.

I was working on an M5 TB set up before i had the idea for the twin 60mm tb. Back when i started working on them i was told that you can't weld cast aly but thats not true, had i known this i wouldn't have messed about making an adapter plate i would have welded some M30 mounting flanges on to the TB's.

Making the plate was a PITA, getting all the holes to line up and grinding the ports out, i got pissed off with it and i thought it was over kill for my engine.

To compair them i worked out the surface area in mm2.

M30 = 3318

2 x 60mm = 5654

M5 TB's = 9542 (or nearly three times bigger than the stock M30 TB !)

I was going to use filter socks but i was advised that they would lose me some power so i sold them on and bought an E28 M5 plenum.

The engine has to be streetable, so i may end up with the means to reach such bhp, but not beable to run it "on the street" so to speak.

So long as it's mapped right you should be alright with that 288 cam/TB's as it's very similar duration to mine. It just won't be quite as silky smooth as a stock motor, the throttle will be more sensitive on part/light throttle.

-------------

AndyS wrote: I've been told the Highline exhaust manifolds are superior to the older models - is a 6 branch tubular still a worthwhile mod?

Not really worth it on a stockish motor, it will sound nice though

You got the later E32/4 type M30 in the later six's, i'd have thought the latter two peice manifold should be better than the old log style manifold ?

This is the early manifold

Wasn't there a silver E28 with a fitted E34 3.8 lump in TBMW a few years back?? This thread just reminded me of that.....I think that would be amazing....(having owned a 3.8) an E24 that goes like a E34 3.8.

Good on ya Check it out!

P.S...I'm happy with my stock e24 as there's alway's the 450hp Dodge to use!

For those who are interested I've just bought a recon BOSCH AFM for an 87 Highline and it was £195+VAT.

I did shopped around but I'm fairly new to these cars so may not know all the best places.

I did speak to jenvey about the socks, and they said the same,in that i would loose power, and an airbox was still the best way to go.

Did you weld that yourself? and what kit? i know you weld practically any metal, but alloys, and aluminium etc tend to be much more involved. Love the job on the plenum though, very nice.

I'm running a bored out throttle body now (standard bored out) and the respnseis much improved. I havnt noticed it being quicker, it just feels more eager. I would consider it a great "driveability" mod. Not having to pre-load the accelerator when pulling out etc makes the mcar a much better drive.

Knit, i agree, and this will be my limiting factor. I know 300 is achievable, it may just be that it idles at 2k, and comes on song 6000>7000 which isnt a nice drive. The low down torque of the m30 is great, so different to what i have been used to (the 2.5 m20). I will take the engine as far as i can, whilst playing a balancing act with "driveability vs power".

That tube type manifold. I have that. Its basically the same as the 745i turbo manifold as well. great for adapting for a turbo conversion though!

Considering thison the six, as i won't be turboing the 335i, i have the full kit left over.......

(tells himself he must get the 335i finished first, or all friends and relatives will crucify him).

Yes, its generally said that you get 35>40% running 5>6psi on a standard engine. Anything more and you start to push yur luck.

There is a company that wanted to see how far they could go with a standard engine. I've got to find which site again. But they claim to have bolted a turbo on, and increased the pressure, right up until they had 624 rwhp. this sounds a phenominal amount. This was when the engine decided to pop a piston. Probably find evenrything else was failing around the same point, but didnt critical until then. They do full m30 turbo conversions, but are american.

What truth is in their number i really don't know.

With the down pipe i think i would have to have a turbo-relocation pipe, as next to the engine looks too tight. the downpipe would then be split to go either side of the steering rack,much like the e30. very tight fit.....

Its something i am considering for the future, and will be cheaper than tuning the engine, unlike the 335, where i will doing just that. the 6 should end up a similar straight line speed to the 335 as the turbo should give me more power than all the mods to the 335i.

I have seen a few m30's (218bhp) running a cliamed 6>10psi and output between 300 and 365 from a standard lump. although higher figures are no good for drag srips as the standard cluth cooks itself.

I have the bmp metal head gasket, and arp bolts. This should be a good days work,but the see the m30's boost handling significantly improved. Again, not until i have done the 335i. On holiday next week, and the next as well. after that i hope to come back with "renewed enthusiasm" to get it finished.

Drew540i wrote: Check it out! wrote: TPS on the motronic system is just a W.O.T. for those who havnt looked into engine management. This is basically a throttle on/off switch, it doesnt tell the ecu where the throttle is merly if it is on or off of idle.   Nonsense! It also has a full load switch!

I would suggest taking the tps (w.o.t) apart and looking.

Its the same part as on the e30. a car i know a fair bit about.

Drew540i wrote: It also drops straight into where an M30 came from because the blocks are similar. I'm sure even Andy 335 (thanks for the quality info mate!) would have condidered this if he knew how far he'd be going!

I know what you mean mate, the M5 lump would make an excellent swap, though it's a more involved and expensive one to start off with.

The extra things over and above the M30 swap is the height of the M5 engine can cause problems so i've read,(custom ?)exhaust manifolds and swapping over to an old brake booster set up to allow enough room for the plenum or smaller servo and chop a small lump out of the plenum. Nothing to difficult though.

Just to expand a little and see if my understanding is correct or not ?

1.) At rest, the tiny microswitch (often referred to as a
Burgess microswitch after the company that makes
it for Bosch) is depressed. This tells the ECU that
the engine is at idle.

At tick over the AFM flap is closed(?), the air by-passes the flap, the by-pass area is adjusted by the tick over mixture adjustment screw ?

2.) Just off idle, the microswitch is released which
then switches the ECU into part throttle mode,
accessing the part throttle maps.

Part throttle, the ECU referances the AFM(air flow),CPS(rpm), IAT and coolant temp sensor and works out the timing and the fueling from the part throttle maps, further adjustments are added on for IAT and coolant temp. Coolant temp needs a bigger adjustment than IAT ?

3.) When the throttle switch is fully wound around,
two contacts are closed together which sends a
signal to the ECU to access the full throttle maps.

WOT, the AFM flap is pinned open by he force of the air(depending on RPM ?), ECU ignores the AFM and reverts to an RPM based WOT map but will still be affected by IAT and coolant temp corrections ?

Of the E30 generation Motronic only the M3 had a baromic sensor which is located inside the ECU casing ???

As i said i'm just kind of testing out my understanding of Motronic management from the E30 era, have i got it right ?