Non-start ..the saga continues! |
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siscobmw
Senior Member II Joined: 13-May-2005 Location: North Italy , near lake of Como Status: Offline Points: 201 |
Posted: 14-December-2005 at 05:19 | |
All I've done is repeat everything for lazy 6 series mates..with 1-2 more info ....hoping that my adds will help . I do not want to bore you or to be unpleasant.... |
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omega man
Groupie Joined: 05-July-2005 Status: Offline Points: 90 |
Posted: 14-December-2005 at 03:49 | |
d.m.e. relay.
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UKDaveJ
Really Senior Member II Joined: 18-November-2004 Location: Bromsgrove, Worcestershire Status: Offline Points: 529 |
Posted: 13-December-2005 at 19:14 | |
I just want to read that you've found 'the problem' & with all the
help & advice you've had on here that you can finally have it
running Ben.
I flicked back onto the topic hoping this was actually the case. Incidentally, don't ignore the specialist route to solve your problem, funds permitting, of that I fully understand! I've had a problem with my work Mk4 Golf & despite being in to a VAG main agent, plugged in to their diagnostics, no problems, constant stalling & pinking still remained. Then the car went to a specialist auto-sparky, still no joy. Whilst I was working away in Germany last week for the MOD, one of the lads got so fed up with this constant stalling that he took it back to our local garage that we use for servicing. They persisted & found a mechanical issue within the throttle control unit. Upon removal of a vacuum pipe the problem has disappeared 100% - I couldn't believe the difference in how it now drives, stall & pinking free! They took great pride in solving a problem that even VAG couldn't fix, even more so when the new parts would have cost over £400 + vat........ Good luck Ben |
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My 635's.
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Drew540i
Really Senior Member II Available from all good newsagents! Joined: 15-August-2005 Location: The Mansfield Massive Status: Offline Points: 632 |
Posted: 13-December-2005 at 15:29 | |
How many posts have I posted about this? I've probably spent over an hour looking at wiring diagrams trying to help this guy. All you've done is repeat everything I've already said. |
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siscobmw
Senior Member II Joined: 13-May-2005 Location: North Italy , near lake of Como Status: Offline Points: 201 |
Posted: 13-December-2005 at 09:11 | |
first of all.... 1 BE sure that relays receive 12V from battery, atfer You turn the key on position2(that position of the key with all those lights on...),as relays have 2 + wires, one from the actuator(in this case , the Motronic relays from OBC /the green wire I told you several posts ago..)and one from 12v(directly from the battery or under the ignition key system...Maybe from the ignition key, when we talk about ECU)...I hope that permanent 12v is not leading electricity at all, is more simple to fix , in my head 2 Then , Be pretty sure that Your fuse box printed circuit has not cuts on circuits and has not melted contacts... 3 Here I need the memory of every 635 driver that read this topic:When my OBC burglar alarm was stuck off, the needle of my economy gauge was not operating as usual..I can't remember if -with the alarm on-the needle stayed on Zero and moved to max of the scale after I unlocked the alarm...or viceversa. Actually my car has a flat battery, so I'm not able to check what that needle does till tomorrow(when the battery is hopefully charged)...If anyone can go to her/his garage and start his 1982-1988 635...Well, this man can see if the non start saga depends from the OBC or OBC relays.....And also if Motronic relays is fed up with a good dose of 12v tension... 4 I do not know the correct date of Your car production, but some early Motronic cars had a 3rd control relay: open the fuse box , look at those black rectangular relay (below right,with a lot of pins for windshied washer/wipers...)....Is there a square one near that?(well there are 2 rows of 4 similar relays in the fuse box, I mean the 9th at top right..)...If it is in place , You should have a look at it, if You have not a relay, nor the wires in the connector plug...Well, congratulations! You have a more decent Motronic system than on my 635!! 5 For Drew540i: There are a lot of posts in 6 series tech forum...If you are bored about this saga( more episodes here than a brazilian Telenovelas....), please, call yourself "out" and read the other posts; I will go on helping as better as I can....With the time I can spend on it...When had problems with my 635 I had no net-connections and there were no big forums like this...Now this forum turns into a big help-board for a lot of people,and It's not good/polite to read replies of "bored " people... Nobody forces you to read... Francesco from Italy |
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coates
Senior Member II Joined: 16-May-2005 Status: Offline Points: 198 |
Posted: 12-December-2005 at 16:56 | |
GENTS, not sure if this is a help, i used to own an early 325 sport which had the very similar problem(i have not read this thread fully and may have missed something)non starter, voltage to coil etc-one of the sensors on the bell housing reads a pulse from the flywheel, the pulse is generated by a 'tag' which is situated on the flywheel-i think its quite rare but this tag can become detached(it did on mine, just snapped off)therefore sensor does not pick up the pulse, therefore no signal to ecu and no spark. as i say you may have covered this already, i didnt read the full post. good luck. |
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E30 M3 1990.
GSXR 750(K1)TRACK WEAPON. |
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Drew540i
Really Senior Member II Available from all good newsagents! Joined: 15-August-2005 Location: The Mansfield Massive Status: Offline Points: 632 |
Posted: 12-December-2005 at 16:24 | |
Well, it seems fairly clear to me;
The fuel pump works, but the injectors do not.(no ECU) The coil is not being switched on/off. (No ECU) The ECU is known to work. Both crank sensors are known to be good. About the only conclusion here is that the ECU is not getting 12 volts. As soon as Matey here tests for 12 volts at the ECU 12 connection, he'll know. I'm almost willing to bet a Mars Bar that it he runs a fused wire from battery + to the ECU pin 35, this car will start and run. Over to you now - but please don't waste everyone's time and go off on a wild goosechase until you've established that your working ECU is receiving 12 volts. That is the key to this car running or not! |
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AndyS
Really Senior Member II The Last of the Few Joined: 21-August-2003 Location: 55 � North Status: Offline Points: 1365 |
Posted: 12-December-2005 at 10:07 | |
Might I suggest disconnecting your new alarm. If there's a problem with
this then you'll be looking in the wrong place, ie. don't add new
variables to the problem.
While I wouldn't echo Drew540i's comments quite so strongly he does have a point. You do seem to have tried everything possible & I appreciate you want to learn as much as you can. Sometimes though you just have to say "sod it" & take it to someone who really knows these cars - not someone who just knows auto electrics in general. Have a word with Barney at Munich Legends (01825 740456). Horsetan may not like them but they do know the 6-series very well & may be able to throw some more light on the subject. As for the Drew540i/Horsetan spat . . .
Having been on the end of some of it (more than once) I have to agree. |
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siscobmw
Senior Member II Joined: 13-May-2005 Location: North Italy , near lake of Como Status: Offline Points: 201 |
Posted: 12-December-2005 at 04:35 | |
The only thing I didn't found.....Do The injectors work? Francesco from Italy |
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Drew540i
Really Senior Member II Available from all good newsagents! Joined: 15-August-2005 Location: The Mansfield Massive Status: Offline Points: 632 |
Posted: 11-December-2005 at 17:01 | |
Ahh, well I was reading from an M20 wiring diagram
(that's old E28 525e, chrome bumper 325i etc). But this old Motronic system was pretty similar and most of the ECU's can be swapped over anyway as it was a generic BMW system. When it's daylight and you have 10 minutes, check for 12 volts at the DME relay and ECU terminal 35. If you have no power at the DME relay, check for 12v at terminal 30 (red wire). This is the terminal that takes power from the battery. If there's nothing there either, run a fused wire directly to the battery plus and she should fire up and run. Remember to check all this with the ignition on! |
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phb10186
Really Senior Member I Joined: 18-April-2005 Location: North London Status: Offline Points: 331 |
Posted: 11-December-2005 at 15:40 | |
Drew540.... What you have indirectly solved here is that the US cars and the Euro cars have the same ECU pin connections to eachother, as I have a US spec list in front of me, and everything checks out to be identical. Lets see what this uncovers.... To be continued... |
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1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
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Brucey
Really Senior Member II Joined: 07-March-2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 744 |
Posted: 11-December-2005 at 14:27 | |
I thought we were trying to fix the car...... cheers
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~~~~~~~ Brucey ~~~~~~ |
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phb10186
Really Senior Member I Joined: 18-April-2005 Location: North London Status: Offline Points: 331 |
Posted: 11-December-2005 at 12:40 | |
A free BMW original Oil filter to the person who fathoms out my problem!
This is a lie. |
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1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
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Drew540i
Really Senior Member II Available from all good newsagents! Joined: 15-August-2005 Location: The Mansfield Massive Status: Offline Points: 632 |
Posted: 11-December-2005 at 12:30 | |
Whatever! But you know that your ECU works so it's probably a problem of either 12 supply to the ECU or maybe an earth. You need to test all these terminals by grounding them (basically a test light on battery minus and sticking the end of the test light into the terminals.) You should have 12 volts at Terminals 18 (sometimes - not all cars have it)) and 35 to power up the ECU - terminal 35 is powered up from terminal 87 (red/black wire) on the five pin DME relay on the inner wing next to the fuel pump relay. This is important and could be the root of the problem by whatever means. No power here - run a FUSED wire from a 12v source. Don't do it without a fuse - any problem and you might just fry the ECU. Terminals 14 (cyls 1,2 and 3) and 15 (cyls 4,5,6) are for the injectors. Make sure you've got voltage here - you should hear the relevant injectors click when you ground these terminals (ignition on) Check the earthing at 5, 10, 16, 17 and 19 for continuity. You'll need an ohmeter for this. Engine speed sensor terminals are indeed 27 AND terminal 8 - you need around 960 ohms of resistance. Fuel pump relay control - ground terminal 20 and you should hear the pump whirring away. Starter input pulse - you'll need over 8VDC at terminal 4(ign. ON) That should keep you busy for a while. My guess is that you've no power to the ECU - faulty OBC relay, dodgy alarm wiring, ignition switch. If you don't have 12v at either ECU terminal 35 or DME relay terminal 87, you've found the problem. Report back! And put Tan's toys back in his pram for Christ's sake. |
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Drew540i
Really Senior Member II Available from all good newsagents! Joined: 15-August-2005 Location: The Mansfield Massive Status: Offline Points: 632 |
Posted: 11-December-2005 at 11:49 | |
Ahh, diddums. Little soldier's got a temper. Lots of folk are also fed up with your sniping, caustic sarcasm and it's been noted that you don't like it in return. Hard luck Matey. I've tried to help this guy out with his car and you'll note that I've said 'it's not personal'. Also stay out of what doesn't concern you, okay? Have fun with your non runners - and get a life. Edited by Drew540i |
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phb10186
Really Senior Member I Joined: 18-April-2005 Location: North London Status: Offline Points: 331 |
Posted: 11-December-2005 at 10:13 | |
This is Ivan here: Ben may not know what he's doing at the moment, but at least he's taking the trouble to learn. That is far more useful to him than your own arrogance. I might also add that the reason he came to this Forum was to help him narrow things down - which he has considerably, and is grateful for. At best, he even hoped that one or more of you - with your "years of experience", Andy - might be able to actually pinpoint the problem. But the fact is that you haven't.
I think a good many of us are equally fed up of the exalted position which you tend to take. We all have to learn. Unlike you, we are not blessed with God-given knowledge. The sooner you can make use of your knowledge in a more ethereal place, perhaps the better it will be. |
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1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
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phb10186
Really Senior Member I Joined: 18-April-2005 Location: North London Status: Offline Points: 331 |
Posted: 11-December-2005 at 07:40 | |
I actually have a specialist working on it at the moment, but its hard to find some of the information, as I dont know my way around every resource at the moment, basically because I dont have that much free time... I am fairly new to this car, but I want to do as much as I can myself, so that when something happens again I can repeat, what I have done in the past. Specialists are all very well, but I am very keen to learn about things that the rest of you know, and by just taking it to a specialist, I will never learn that. This non-start business has taken a long time, but I now know where everything I am looking for is. Your experteise is attributable to your hands on experience, not by you taking your car to a specialist all the time, thats how we learn.
Finally; could someone please let me know the pin locations for the Motronic ECU... I.E what every pin does. I have a US definition, but I wanted to make sure of the European ones before I test anything. According to what I have found... PIN 25 and 26 are the reference point sonsor, and Pin 27 is the speed sensor. |
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1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
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Drew540i
Really Senior Member II Available from all good newsagents! Joined: 15-August-2005 Location: The Mansfield Massive Status: Offline Points: 632 |
Posted: 11-December-2005 at 06:38 | |
To be brutally frank;
You're totally out of your depth here, and you will never make this car work again. You don't have the knowledge, simple as that. Not being personal but you really don't know what you're doing. Might I echo Rob's comments? Take it to a specialist and get them to fix it, then tell everyone what the problem was. I think most of us are past caring now. |
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phb10186
Really Senior Member I Joined: 18-April-2005 Location: North London Status: Offline Points: 331 |
Posted: 11-December-2005 at 06:25 | |
I have tried the OBC relay, now that I come to think of it... It didnt start when I put another one in!
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1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
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siscobmw
Senior Member II Joined: 13-May-2005 Location: North Italy , near lake of Como Status: Offline Points: 201 |
Posted: 09-December-2005 at 04:16 | |
MAybe You should look at this page: http://www.stormpages.com/countchocula1/bmw/etm203.htm (there's a picture of OBC relay box) http://www.stormpages.com/countchocula1/bmw/etm208.htm (location components ) The wiring diagrams are here: http://www.stormpages.com/countchocula1/bmw/etm123.htm Hope this helps! Francesco From Italy PS: near motronic brain there are 2 connectors, 1 white and one black.there' shuld be a little green wire going in and out white connector, that gives power to the ECU relays....This on my '83 model car, I think it shpuld be the same also on later cars... |
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