Non-start ..the saga continues!
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Category: Technical & Model Specific Forums
Forum Name: BMW 6 Series
Forum Discription: This forum will deal with any issues on the BMW 6 Series (E24, E63 & E64)
URL: http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=23466
Printed Date: 28-April-2024 at 20:38
Topic: Non-start ..the saga continues!
Posted By: phb10186
Subject: Non-start ..the saga continues!
Date Posted: 22-October-2005 at 08:13
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Hello everyone, The continuing story of my non-starting 1985 635 continues. More money spent, no more joy. The sensors that many people have told me about have been changed, the 2 that connect to the flywheel. These are now brand new, and returning perfect resistances - but the car still wont work, and I still have no spark. Here is a list of everything that I can think of that may point to an answer... 1. Everything after the coil, including the coil is fine, so it's something pre-coil. 2. DME realy, and all relays and fuses in fact are A-OK. 3. ECU's seem to be OK, as there are no visible blows on the componentry. 4. Fuel is OK.
It just turns and turns and turns and will not fire (as I said there is no spark) Things it could feasibly be, which I hope it is not..
1. ECU 2. Some blow in a wire or connection somewhere. 3. Something to do with the new SI board that was fitted about 6 months ago - but was running fine with for 3-4 months. The only thing I have not replaced sensor wise is the one at the front, which connects to the crank, which is absent on the earlier cars, but is on mine (has the same 3 pin connection as the other 2). Apart from that I'm stuffed - I have nothing else to go on. It was running fine, and then all of a sudden nothing at all. The only thing that happened was that the bonnet slammed down as my struts are all weak, but I cant think that had anything to do with it. And im not even sure that that that occured before it wouldnt start. ...Any suggestions from anyone? (I will be annoying some of you about it this Sunday, so hopefully see some of you there. -Ben
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1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Replies:
Posted By: northern_paul
Date Posted: 22-October-2005 at 13:34
Don't know where you're going this Sunday (and I don't know how easy it is to remove install the ECU), but you might want to take it along and see if anyone will install and test it for you????!? Would make the fix a little easier if you eliminate this. |
phb10186 wrote:Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 22-October-2005 at 17:20
He'll be at the Donington Park BMW show. Which is where a number of us are also likely to be..... -------------   
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Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 23-October-2005 at 03:15
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Thats a good idea Paul (and one I thought of) but there is a possibility that fiddling about with someones car while they are away from home could also immobilise their car and induce a very bad day for them! The ECU's are to the lower right of the steering wheel, mounted in the bottom of the dashboard - and some of the lower dashboard pannelling has to come off! Easy to get at, but its not a good idea to do away from home. -Ben -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: DAT 635
Date Posted: 23-October-2005 at 08:02
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I,m no mechanic so excuse my ignorance, but earlier you spoke of " ripping out an alarm " & having read what you have checked & replaced with very little improvement it may be prudent to check that all immobilisers have been disabled???? Once again this is about as educated a guess I can give for a suggestion. Good luck, we are all willing this six to start. |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 23-October-2005 at 19:55
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once the old alarm is out... so is the immobiliser! Besides it was knackered anyways, and hasnt been used since about 1990! -Ben -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: eta.
Date Posted: 24-October-2005 at 02:58
| A long shot. Did anyone mess around with the OBC 'immobiliser' code? |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 24-October-2005 at 05:27
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There wouldn't be a code now as the battery has been disconnected and re-connected several times..... ask me how I know -------------
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Posted By: omega man
Date Posted: 24-October-2005 at 05:36
right, just a long shot here. is there a dme relay as fitted to the e23 on the offside turret suspention turret. its a fuel relay that often go same type of problem. i thinks its this. its either a silver one or white. if you take the fuel pipe off the fuel rail then crank over the engine and theres no fuel comming out thats your problem... the dme relay is just on your drivers side bulkhead. more likly this has packed up. 
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Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 24-October-2005 at 06:14
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The fuel relay has already been tried.... It passed. -------------
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Posted By: omega man
Date Posted: 24-October-2005 at 08:43
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is there fuel getting to the fuel rail.. |
Posted By: Drew21
Date Posted: 24-October-2005 at 09:01
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is the coil defo getting power? a non-starting golf of mine was cured with a new ignition switch. I forget which but one terminal should get a constant 12v (not the big chunky HT terminal obviously but one of the other two) excuse me if I'm re-covering old ground but I'm new to the saga. Whereabouts in N London are you? I'm in Marylebone but I have no brakes to speak of!! |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 24-October-2005 at 11:51
We really should turn this into a West End musical - I can see it now.... "C'mon Baby Light My Fire" - the story of one man's futile effort to start a car. Starring Ben Marks as himself, Jackie Mason as Mr. Marks, Julie Burchill as Mrs. Marks, George Galloway MP as Ross Harris......and a cast of thousands  -------------
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Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 24-October-2005 at 13:23
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The ruddy thing turns over fine, it cant be the ignition switch. I dont get power to the coil, but everything after it is OK. Ultimately there is no spark. -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Brucey
Date Posted: 24-October-2005 at 14:58
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-I thought the coil was switched low- if so then you have a simple feed problem if you never read 12V on it... -just a thought.... cheers
------------- ~~~~~~~ Brucey ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Hiabboy
Date Posted: 24-October-2005 at 17:59
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Sounds like the ecu to me . I have a running car here with a 061 ecu, you are welcome to try your ? ecu in my running car, i am just west of london and have a good ecu for sale. ------------- Profit is more reasonable than justice. |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 25-October-2005 at 08:39
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I will be in touch very soon!!!!!!!!!! -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Sohlman
Date Posted: 25-October-2005 at 14:52
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One other thought. Is there an imobiliser / Alarm in your car tht you don't know about as this could be the source of your problems. I had a problem once fairly similar to this where there was no spark and it turned out to be the imobiliser that the insurance company insisted i have fitted in the car. A RRPITA I can tell you. Good luck and keep us posted on the saga. James -------------  Sunday 10th July Brooklands Sharkfest and Big Coupe Day. http://635csi.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ - Coupe Events
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Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 25-October-2005 at 15:55
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Well this is a massive RRPITA too, more of a RRPITFA to be honest. -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 25-October-2005 at 16:39
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Before we go barking up the wrong tree again, please note that the only other immobiliser other than the TOAD alarm which Ben had fitted is the BMW "code"-armed one, operated via the OBC keypad. However, disconnecting the battery cancels it, as everyone knows. Ben's disconnected his battery more times in the past fortnight than you've had hot dinners, so I'd hardly think the BMW immobiliser is still running. -------------
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Posted By: Drew540i
Date Posted: 26-October-2005 at 15:39
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Hmmmm............
I had a problem recently with a 1992 520i - okay so it's rather more modern than an old E24, but...... Basically, it would not start. No power to the ECU even though the ECU was fine. Turns out that the E32 and E34 have a fusible link in the battery plus cable that powers up the engine managment loom. And it blows. 
My money would be on removing all the underdash trim and the lower cowling from the steering column and inspecting all the wiring from the ignition barrel. If it's had an immobiliser, chances are some Dick used a Scotchlok (the mark of a bodger) to connect up an immobiliser or alarm. It's such a common problem on old cars. The DME relay also affects the fuel pump. Are the plugs wet with fuel? Even if the fuel rail is primed and the pump working, the injectors still need to be opened. In short, is there fuel there and on the plugs? If it's simply an ignition fault, they should stink of petrol. The coil needs 12 volts (battery voltage - about 12-13v) at terminal 15. Use a test light between Terminal 15 and battery MINUS (ground). If there's nothing there, run a fused wire between battery plus and terminal 15. It should then run, and the problem will be in the wiring between the coil and ignition switch. Could even be the control unit for the OBC which is ignition related for the OBC anti theft function. ------------- |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 26-October-2005 at 16:11
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My red ECU is fine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Peter (hiyyaboy) let me test it, which I am indebted for - thanks again mate. But this eliminates only one more thing. -ben -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 26-October-2005 at 17:29
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You should've seen the spaghetti that Ben removed......
No smell at all. -------------
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Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 26-October-2005 at 17:48
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There is a stink of petrol, fuel is OK Its like going 1 step forward and 2 steps back! -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 26-October-2005 at 18:07
There wasn't when you tried to start it in front of me the other week! -------------
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Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 26-October-2005 at 18:15
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There is definately a stink of fuel from the cylinders after its been turned over for a while -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 26-October-2005 at 18:16
OK so, the fuel has come through One less glitch to worry about -------------
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Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 27-October-2005 at 16:17
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Car turns over again.... Battery was flat!!! Its still in the same state as it has been for thye last 11 weeks, Relays, fuel, fuses, sensors, ECU's all OK I think Im looking for an earth fault, a dodgy connection or an unplugged wire somewhere, but its not going to be easy to find. Peter gave me part number '65811373726' so im going to try that box out. Its something to do with the OBC and its a smallish black box under the glovebox, with the 2 green 4 wired plugs going in to it. -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Drew540i
Date Posted: 28-October-2005 at 10:10
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So, you've tested the coil for a 12v supply then??
Until you do this, you're just wasting your time. ------------- |
Posted By: Drew21
Date Posted: 28-October-2005 at 10:18
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seconded if its defo an ignition problem and its a non-starter my money is on the LT supply side of the coil/ ECU/ whatever electrics the ignition system needs. I might also hedge my bets on a faulty king lead (ie the HT lead from the coil to the distributor) |
Posted By: Drew540i
Date Posted: 28-October-2005 at 17:48
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Absolutely. If there is voltage at the coil, the thing to
try would be to pull the king lead out of the distributor cap, stick a spark plug in the end, rest it on the engine and see if it sparks. Also, Motronic systems really do need a fully charged battery with a good 13 volts to spin the motor over AND give a spark. If it gives a spark here but not at the plug leads, suspect the rotor arm/cap. But firstly, test terminal 15 (it's marked clearly) on the coil for 12v. If there's nothing there, run a lead to battery + to power it up. If it's a problem caused by dodgy ignition/alarm wiring, it should start and run. Make this the first thing you do tomorrow, after giving the battery a good charge. ------------- |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 28-October-2005 at 17:59
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no spark from king lead -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 28-October-2005 at 18:26
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ill test the coil and LT side of things tomorrow, and jump it from terminal 15 that was suggested. I take it that terminal 15 is in the fuse box then, or is it on the coil? -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 28-October-2005 at 18:52
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Can you start the car with the instrument cluster removed??? I did take it out a while back, and was wondering of a problem could lie there, and Im just thinking about it in advance in case the tests that everyone has suggested turn out negative. Basically could there be one connection to the cluster thats somehow come adrift, that would cause a non-start??? -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 29-October-2005 at 06:26
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OK tested some stuff... Coil is dead, and not getting any voltage. Fuse 15 in the fuse box has no voltage when connected to the battery. Engine and the rest of the car has good earth. Is fuse 15 definately the one that links through to the LT side of the ignition, because: http://www.stormpages.com/countchocula1/bmw/etm102.htm - http://www.stormpages.com/countchocula1/bmw/etm102.htm & http://www.stormpages.com/countchocula1/bmw/etm102a.htm - http://www.stormpages.com/countchocula1/bmw/etm102a.htm suggests that fuse 15 is not used! I want to be sure before I start looking. so still no start, but I know that the coill is dead on the LT side -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 29-October-2005 at 07:03
That diagram you're looking at was aimed at the US-spec 635s. Now, what does your authentic instruction book (which Dave swapped with you) say about fuse number 15??? -------------
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Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 29-October-2005 at 07:14
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ill check it out in a sec
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1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 29-October-2005 at 08:30
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OK, some ammedments.... Seems as if the coil is getting 12 volts after all! No spark from king lead, but I have changed the king for another, and still no spark. I must admit that I did check the distrubutor cap and rotor arm, and they seemed fine. I have also taken the ignution swith out and cleaned it, and its the same as it was before. But if the car is turning over and there is 12 volts to the coil, but nothing after, it suggests an HT problem. so ill have to check this out now i suppose, unless someone else has any other suggestions. -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 29-October-2005 at 08:45
It would be highly amusing if you got the car running by the time I came round -------------
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Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 29-October-2005 at 09:09
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Im feeling like a complete knacker here!!!! -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 29-October-2005 at 09:13
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OK a simple question: Turn the key and the car turns over and there is 12 Volts to the coil (and a new coil has been fitted today). There is still no spark to the king lead, and switching for another king lead does not yeild a spark.
Engine is earthed, and all the ECU's fuses etc etc are all fine - so what could be wrong, I just dont understand it?!?!?
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1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: omega man
Date Posted: 29-October-2005 at 09:49
| ITS THE BLOODY DME RELAY, please belive me, just change it, dont know how you managed to test the old one. if you have a spare try it... |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 29-October-2005 at 10:47
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I have substituted it in someone elses car and the car works fine - so the DME relay cant be bad, can it? -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Drew540i
Date Posted: 29-October-2005 at 13:43
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If there is 12v at the coil (15), it's not being triggered
by the ECU. Is there voltage at the other side of the coil (1)? If not, check for voltage at the ECU multiplug at terminal 1 - the black wire on the end. On this system, the ECU does the work of contact breaker points on an old relic like a Mini or 2002. If there is voltage at both coil + and coil -, the ECU for some reason isn't triggering the coil. Maybe, just maybe the TDC indicator lug has fallen off the flywheel. It happens - 525e's used to be well known for it. You'll have to remove the plastic 'grating' cover on the bellhousing and with a torch, look in the hole whilst you turn the engine over with a screwdriver on the flywheel ring gear teeth. It's a small raised, square lug and is very obvious. If it's fallen out, it's really a gearbox out job to repair although some have welded another one back on. My money is still on a bodged or broken wire due to a dodgy alarm install. One way or another, this *******car will run again!! ------------- |
Posted By: Drew540i
Date Posted: 29-October-2005 at 14:15
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BTW you HAVE tried the DME relay - and not the
orange fuel pump relay............ The DME relay is either white plastic or silvery metal and has five pins. Pin 30 is for battery 12v, pin 85 is an earth (have you checked for a ground? Run a wire to battery minus!). I'm not sure what pin 86 does but 87(red/white) powers the injectors and feeds terminal 86 on the fuel pump relay. Terminal 87 (red and black wire) goes to terminal 35 on the ECU. So - check for 12v at terminal 30, 86 and the two 87's. There is also an earth point for the entire system on the engine - God knows where though. Probably a bunch of brown wires with an eyelet under one of the bolts securing the harness to the engine/manifold. ------------- |
Posted By: omega man
Date Posted: 29-October-2005 at 14:26
| ok you say the dme relay is ok, can you take the inlet pipe off your fuel rail and then crank the engine over to see if there is fuel coming out of your inlet pipe, if not its the dme relay or your fuel pump. just try it in the morning. |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 29-October-2005 at 18:51
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Fuel is coming through perfectly, Drew540i; what do you mean by (15) and (1)? Alarm installation is not to blame in my oppinion; old one went through the ignition, and its well and truly out of there. The new one is wired into the starter motor circuit, and it also works fine. I have isolated the problem to the coil electrics, since; as I have said, everything else checks out OK - but there is no spark coming from the coil; but the coil is getting 12 volts. It seems like a break in a cable, or a loose joint.... only question is where is the SOB! For sure... ECU's, relays, fuel, alarm OK. No Scotchlocs left; and I cant see anything obvious. Havnt checked terminal 1 on the ECU multiplug yet. Only thing that happened in between the last time that it started and now that could be responsible is the bonnet slamming. It does not seem to be a straight forward problem I think I need a shrink! Did I mention that the stereo is working perfectly??? -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Drew540i
Date Posted: 30-October-2005 at 04:44
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Hmmm - do BMW's have an impact sensor? Old
Jags used to, on the driver's A pillar. When you slammed the door really hard, the button would pop up cutting the fuel. Not sure if a 635CSi has got anything like this, but doubt it. Look on the coil and you'll see 15(Coil+) & 1(Coil -) You should have near enough 12v with the ignition on. This is why you need a multimeter and not just a 12v test light. Test for voltage here during cranking. Maybe you've got a big voltage drop during cranking. On old cars with points this was a problem so the 'ballast resistor coil' was invented to keep a full 12v going during cranking. If there is 12v there, there's nothing wrong with the ignition system - the coil is not being triggered. With a multimeter check also that you have voltage at the injectors (just pull a plug off). If you don't, it's an ECU related problem. Go and look for the flywheel trigger as well. If that's dropped off, you'll never get it going again. ------------- |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 30-October-2005 at 10:25
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No impact sensor. I haven't got one on my '83, and Ben's hardly likely to have one either...... -------------
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Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 30-October-2005 at 10:26
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No it bloody well isn't! Ben's DME relay functioned perfectly in an E34 525i. -------------
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Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 30-October-2005 at 11:26
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I dont want to start a civil war with this! -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 30-October-2005 at 11:48
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It's not civil war. It's uncivil war -------------
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Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 30-October-2005 at 16:55
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Funnily enough, this is what my mechanic Carlos came straight out with when I called him this evening...... Says it's the most common cause he's come across with "no-fires"..... -------------
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Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 30-October-2005 at 17:13
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Is this pin part of the flywheel, or is it a separate part that can be renewed? I.E has anyone encountered this before, and what was the outcome? Would I need a new flywheel, and what has to come out/ dismantled. Let me please also stress that this is still unproven as the fault - and we are just hypothesising at the moment. -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 30-October-2005 at 18:02
Not having seen one ('cos not had this problem), cannot answer this. But you do end up having to go underneath the car anyway. -------------
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Posted By: eta.
Date Posted: 31-October-2005 at 11:06
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No impact sensor. I haven't got one on my '83, and Ben's hardly likely to have one either...... [/QUOTE]I think the impact sensor is what BMW call an 'emergency switch' and e24's have them (even '83 models):- 10 EMERGENCY SWITCH 1 09/1983 09/1985 61311373323 ENDED 10 EMERGENCY SWITCH 1 09/1985 61311380302 This part can be found as part of the central locking system diagram here:- http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=5382&mospid=47 199&btnr=41_0556&hg=41&fg=50 I am guessing there is reset procedure in the handbook. |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 31-October-2005 at 13:44
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can this be caused by a bonnet slamming?? -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 31-October-2005 at 13:58
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Yes I have that! Its above the glove box, with a cover over it, mounted very close to the cruise control box. Its about the size of a mobile phone, and it is skrewed to a bit of moulding to conceal the wiring there. It has the part NO: 61311373323 on my car. http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=5382&mospid=47199&btnr=41_0595&hg=41&fg=50&hl=27 - http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=5382&mospi d=47199&btnr=41_0595&hg=41&fg=50&hl=27 can anyone tell me about it, thew bonnet did slam in between it starting and non-starting, can this box cause the car not to start? Is there a reset procedure, and if so what is it? -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 31-October-2005 at 16:32
My '83 owner's book says nothing about this impact sensor. This is complete news to me -------------
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Posted By: northern_paul
Date Posted: 01-November-2005 at 05:53
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I thought any car with Fuel Injection would have an impact cut off - the whole point being that if the fuel rail (high pressure) ruptures in an accident it is cut off before anything nasty can happen. On another note, I've got a gearbox and flywheel (Getrag 280) I can have a look for the 'lug' if you want and post pics - just let me know. |
Posted By: eta.
Date Posted: 01-November-2005 at 08:59
Phone your BM dealer and ask for someone who knows e24's. Your p/no confirms you have the slightly older model. |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 01-November-2005 at 14:51
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does this do something with the fuel, or is it ignition??? -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: UKDaveJ
Date Posted: 01-November-2005 at 18:05
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I was kinda hoping you'd got it started now Ben! When you've got this sorted you are going to be the man for any E24's that fail to start! Good luck, admire your persistence mate! ------------- My 635's.  
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Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 01-November-2005 at 18:14
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Problem is i'm still not near. Ivor is helping me out with an auto-electrician, but ive been so busy with work recently, the car has to take second place. I hope I can still sort it fairly soon, its been 10 weeks now..... Still aquiring knowledge, and I can identify every box on the car now, so if you dont know what something is.... ask me, and ill probably be able to tell you, unles its not on my car. But to be honest im kind of upset with the whole thing, as its been expensive and time consuming... and it still doesnt work. But YES I will get round to it when I can. -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Drew21
Date Posted: 02-November-2005 at 04:26
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funnily enough my 6 wouldn't start this morning!! ho hum |
Posted By: UKDaveJ
Date Posted: 02-November-2005 at 11:55
SSsshhhh.....they'll hear you & all start playing up next........ ------------- My 635's.
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Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 04-November-2005 at 18:44
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's alright, Carlos will be ready to attack the problem towards the end of the month.... -------------
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Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 05-November-2005 at 14:10
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I bought the ball bearing that attatches to the flywheel today.... its about 4 mm in diameter, and supposedly turns on the flywheel and sends info to the ECU via the 2 flywheel sensors. I cant imagine it is this causing my non-start problems, but I also cant inagine how it attatches to the flywheel... as it is so small and fiddly. Has anyone else had to replace this piece... or indeed know what im talking about as It seems such an unlikely cause, and strange piece to be fitted on to a flywheel. It looks like a small chrome ball bearing (well it is one).... Its like something that came out of a kids game, rather than something that fits on a car. -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: omega man
Date Posted: 05-November-2005 at 14:34
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could it be your dme relay playing up
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Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 05-November-2005 at 14:38
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Ah no, not again, we've been through this already! -------------
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Posted By: Drew540i
Date Posted: 06-November-2005 at 08:07
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If it's an automatic, it's nothing like a ballbearing -
rather an odd shaped bit of steel. What about the DME relay Rob? REckon it could be that you know. ------------- |
Posted By: omega man
Date Posted: 06-November-2005 at 08:16
drew, yes i recon, its the dme relay, just to get horsetan, going.
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Posted By: omega man
Date Posted: 06-November-2005 at 08:22
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seriously, it could be your top dead sensor as drew drop says, it needs to be checked if its fallen off. this alone would be a non starter alone.
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Posted By: Drew540i
Date Posted: 06-November-2005 at 12:15
That doesn't require 12v or a relay. ------------- |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 06-November-2005 at 14:17
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Can someone give me a part No for this bit of metal for the flywheel, my car is an auto... is there 1 or 2 of them on the flywheel (1 for each sensor)? -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Drew540i
Date Posted: 06-November-2005 at 18:33
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There is no such thing - it's an integral part of the
flywheel and is not available on it's own. Have you looked under the car yet, turned the engine over and actually looked for it? It's a very obvious square lug. ------------- |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 07-November-2005 at 15:15
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No, there is nothing under the car, especially not anything like that. -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 13-November-2005 at 05:46
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I will be adding to this posting once I have had an auto-electrician take a look at the car in early December...watch this space.
-Ben -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: paulo
Date Posted: 13-November-2005 at 14:21
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Hi, I have a 635csi 1986 which had exactly the non starting problem ( cut going thru a corner). There wasn't a spark at the plugs although there was voltage at the coil and the engine turned over. I had 2 'expert auto electrical mechanics' look at it but eventually after 2 weeks i got a mobile autoelectrician to look at it and i left the keys with him, he rang me 1/2 hour later to say there was nothing wrong with the car and it started first time! I was having trouble with my battery at the time being drained but i still do not know why it decided to start again all he did was put a booster on the battery because the it was flat after many attempts to start it. ------------- Paulo |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 13-November-2005 at 15:47
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I take it you had a duff battery, and that it wasnt turning over. If you read this thread its quite interesting how this fault has continued to defy me, and others that have looked at the car. My battery is absolutely fine, and it turns over great, fuel OK and everything else I can see is fine. Every relay, fuse and sensor is OK..... there is power to the coil, but nothing to the plugs, which I have learned might be an 'ECU non-fire' problem. Put simply; there is a part of the flywheel that may have fallen off. I havnt seen this yet, nor am I absolutely convinced that this is the problem. Everything I have tested on the car has either been checked and works... or has been replaced! Thus the problem is likely to be simple (i.e its not a ecu or other control box). Its now just a matter of finding where the fault is, and thats why I need an auto electrician to go through the car on a wire to wire basis, and test every circuit and sensor. But... I have been busy at work, and so unfortunately the car has not started since August 28th!!!!!!! Enough said -Ben -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: paulo
Date Posted: 13-November-2005 at 16:42
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Battery still ok and being used, engine turned over but no spark at plugs and both fuel pumps were energised ------------- Paulo |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 13-November-2005 at 18:06
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the battery powers the alarm for about 2 weeks before it needs charging, how could it be the battery? -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Drew540i
Date Posted: 14-November-2005 at 10:27
So, you jacked the car up, put in on axle stands, gone underneath and looked inside the bellhousing with a torch?? This lug isn't much bigger than a little fingernail. It won't stand up and shout at you. So you've got power at the coil but not at the plugs. Have you checked for a spark at the coil lead yet? I mean pulled it out of the distributor cap, stuck an old spark plug in the end and cranked it over. Don't dismiss the battery idea - these need a really powerful battery to spin the engine over AND provide a spark. You've also checked the rotor arm I take it? Not just physically looked at it but removed and checked for a hairline crack and checked it for resistance with an ohmeter? The resistance should be 800 - 1200 ohms, no more no less. ------------- |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 14-November-2005 at 15:36
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No spark from king lead, with plug attatched to it. Will investigate the rotor arm when I have the time -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Brucey
Date Posted: 15-November-2005 at 14:30
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if there is no spark from the king lead then the rotor arm won't be stopping the engine from running. Have you made absolutely sure that some crappy old alarm/immobiliser isn't stopping your car from running? If you have one fitted, I would bet money there is a foul rats nest of wiring under the dash, behind the glove box is a normal spot, and fouling the ignition circuit is common practice. cheers
------------- ~~~~~~~ Brucey ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Samuel m635
Date Posted: 15-November-2005 at 15:30
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It might be a little coincidental, but when I recently bought my M6 (1985 model), it cut out on my way home. I did all the normal stuff, checked the fuel, leads and so on. Eventually called the AA. The AA man found that there was no low tension power to the coil. No volts in = no volts out. We were both thinking the worst until he took a long piece of wire and bared both ends. He then pused one end of the wire into a fuse socket (and secured it with a fuse by pushing it back in) and then connected the other end to the positive feed to the coil. In this way, he was certain that the coil was getting the full 12volts. Engine started straight away and ran for days until my local garage traced the fault to corrosion under the fuse box that was causing the juice flowing to the coil to be reduced due to higher resistance. This could also be a source of ignition, but not the sort that you're after! After isolating the damaged wire and replacing ------------- m635 e46 320 tourer |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 15-November-2005 at 16:35
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But I am getting power to the coil, but nothing out of it!!!! Apparently something (ECU I have been told) is not firing the coil. But I havnt got the time or the expertise to do this at the moment, but I have appanged an auto electrician for a couple of weeks time -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 04-December-2005 at 14:13
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I had a mechanic look at the car today (thanks again Ivan for your help), and it has prompted me to report back with a few questions... The 2 reference point sensors and the flywheel bits that can fall off seem (unfortunately) to be the root of the problem. The mechanic has tested the sensors for resistance and voltages. The resistances are fine (The sensors are new anyway). The voltages: these were recorded when the car is turned over... One gives about 4V, and the other gives nothing. Now, this leaded us to suspect that one of the teeth that sends from the flywheel to the sensor, and subsequently triggers the ECU to fire the coil is missing. I wanted to know if there are 1 or 2 of these 'flywheel teeth', as I can definately see one of them. I also wanted to know exactly what work needs to be done, should one of them be missing. Do I need a new flywheel? How much should I be paying for the job to be done? Has anyone else had this job done before? If I did need a new flywheel, where is the best place to get one (Automatic car)? Finally, are there any other jobs one should do (like any gaskets etc) when the gearbox is out, as this is the best time to do this.
-Ben -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Drew540i
Date Posted: 04-December-2005 at 16:36
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Just one spikey metal bit, that's all.
So that's not the problem - but who repalced the sensors? Are they the right way round? You'll see "B: and "D" cast into the bellhousingby the sensors - "B" is the reference sensor that operates off that raised spiky metal bit and it plugs into the grey plug on the inlet manifold bracket. The other one is the speed sensor and it counts the flywheel teeth (is there one missing??) and this plugs into the black connector on the inlet manifold bracket. If they're swapped over, the thing will never run. Maybe a sensor failed and the new ones were put in wrongly? ------------- |
Posted By: omega man
Date Posted: 04-December-2005 at 17:21
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instead of making this a ****ing drama and a long drawn out ****ing story to make everyone trying to help you look like total ****, take this car of yours to a garage to sort out the bloody problem. ok.
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Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 04-December-2005 at 19:06
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Why would I constantly shell out my hard earned cash to test things that I can do at home off the advice of others? That's what a forum is all about my friend; your attitude disapoints many I am sure - not least due to me being a propagator of peace (and most of the rest of us too). I suspect you are missing the '****ing' point. -Ben P.S All the advice I get I refer to when I work on the car, and it can also be used by others who have a similar problem. Thanks for your advice again Drew; it has helped me out a lot. -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: siscobmw
Date Posted: 05-December-2005 at 12:35
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Hello! I hadn't the time to read the whole saga.... Have you tried the OBC relay?
In LHD cars is near the OBC brain....It often goes . Anyway, if you have ETM link (taken from bigcoupe.com) you can check which wires You have to connect with a jumper .. On older OBC1 You need to connect wire number14 and 15 of black OBC brain connector together...You will lose this feature of the OBC, but your car will start every time , the first time... Francesco from North Italy
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Posted By: Drew540i
Date Posted: 06-December-2005 at 16:52
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That's not a bad idea - I forgot all about that. This
could tie in with the car not starting after the bonnet slammed shut. Another way would be to disconnect the OBC completely - from the back of the instruments and from the OBC control unit. The OBC, when in anti theft mode blocks the ECU from doing anything. Taking the instrument cluster out of the 6 Series is a pain in the **** as it involves dropping the steering column and taking the steering wheel off. Well worth a try though. Sisco - can you post a picture of the relay?? ------------- |
Posted By: siscobmw
Date Posted: 07-December-2005 at 06:29
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I can't sorry, as my car is a OBC 1 model(pre9/84) and this relay is inside the OBC brain.... If i find a pic I wil post it!!!! Francesco From Italy
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Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 07-December-2005 at 16:18
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Apparently, it is not the "lug"...... Next development on this fascinatingly-frustrating saga will be on Sunday, I understand.... -------------
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Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 08-December-2005 at 02:19
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Francisco / Drew, This is a very interesting idea that you have put forward. I have done a lot of electrical stuff, such as old alarm and stereo removed and new ones put in (although they have been done while the car has been out of action). I have also had the SI board replaced, so a problem with the OBC side of things could be possible. Not a single fuse or relay within the fuse box is blown, they are all fine. Ill have to look and think about this. My flywheel would appear to be OK, as one gets about 4V, while the other is 0.2v (voltage from the flywheel sensors to the ECU that is). The next thing for me to do is to check that the ECU is getting this voltage..... This said, I must stress that I have tried my ECU in another car, and it works fine. -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 08-December-2005 at 02:21
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Some pictures of the OBC relay would be very helpful, and what procedure to follow... Francisco was talking about a post on the bigcoupegroup forum... -Ben -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: siscobmw
Date Posted: 09-December-2005 at 04:16
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MAybe You should look at this page: http://www.stormpages.com/countchocula1/bmw/etm203.htm - http://www.stormpages.com/countchocula1/bmw/etm203.htm (there's a picture of OBC relay box) http://www.stormpages.com/countchocula1/bmw/etm208.htm - http://www.stormpages.com/countchocula1/bmw/etm208.htm (location components ) The wiring diagrams are here: http://www.stormpages.com/countchocula1/bmw/etm123.htm - http://www.stormpages.com/countchocula1/bmw/etm123.htm Hope this helps! Francesco From Italy PS: near motronic brain there are 2 connectors, 1 white and one black.there' shuld be a little green wire going in and out white connector, that gives power to the ECU relays....This on my '83 model car, I think it shpuld be the same also on later cars... |
Posted By: phb10186
Date Posted: 11-December-2005 at 06:25
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I have tried the OBC relay, now that I come to think of it... It didnt start when I put another one in! -------------
1985 635 CSI with Style 134's 1998 Z3 2.8i |
Posted By: Drew540i
Date Posted: 11-December-2005 at 06:38
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To be brutally frank;
You're totally out of your depth here, and you will never make this car work again. You don't have the knowledge, simple as that. Not being personal but you really don't know what you're doing. Might I echo Rob's comments? Take it to a specialist and get them to fix it, then tell everyone what the problem was. I think most of us are past caring now. |