635 - dreaded light was / wipe
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Category: Technical & Model Specific Forums
Forum Name: BMW 6 Series
Forum Discription: This forum will deal with any issues on the BMW 6 Series (E24, E63 & E64)
URL: http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=8290
Printed Date: 14-May-2024 at 22:08
Topic: 635 - dreaded light was / wipe
Posted By: johne
Subject: 635 - dreaded light was / wipe
Date Posted: 09-June-2004 at 18:15
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I thought I'd have a bash at dismantling the front end to see if I can clean up headlights and get the washers / wipers going again. Minor problem - although I can see the 4 screws holding on the grills over each set of headlights - I can't find whats holding them on at the corners (where the indicators are) Any ideas how these grills come off? It appears impossible to get at the lights from behind (without removing bonnet & engine!!) As an aside - following previous post - I have picked up a set of refurbished 20 spoke 17" Alpina's (with 235x45 Eagles) - which have somewhat transformed the car after what I now realise were appalling Avon metrics!! Now only radiator, multiple bushes....and inner wings to sort ------------- john |
Replies:
Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 09-June-2004 at 19:00
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Dead easy There are two 8mm nuts holding the indicator unit reached from inside the engine bay. You'll have to remove the plastic shield behind the headlights first to make room. I unplugged the outer headlight cable to give better access. Take the indicator unit out before the 4 screws or else the whole lot will drop out while you're in the engine bay!!! Handy to have a child or woman with small hands available as access it rather restricted. ------------- AndyS Live each day as if it's your last - one day it will be. http://www.photostick.co.uk/view-933_BaurSig1.jpg" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 09-June-2004 at 19:39
If you're really unlucky, these will have corroded...  -------------   
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AndyS wrote:Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 09-June-2004 at 19:40
Avon metrics.... oh God.....
Welcome to the world of the bottomless wallet.... -------------
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Posted By: Sohlman
Date Posted: 10-June-2004 at 00:16
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Taking that 8mm nut off is a horrible exsperience. They will probable shear off rather than unscrew. I would highly recomend upgrading your bulbs whilst you are messing around with the lights. I have Osram Silver stars in the main beam and Philips vision plus on the side lights. Have a look at http://www.powerbulbs.com - www.powerbulbs.com . You need H1 bulbs. The difference will be as large as changing your tyres and wheels to imperials. Avon metrics = The worst tyres ever made 17" Alpina's = The ultimate wheel for a six = Jealous Horsetan = As for the radiator, inner wings etc. You think you have a relativerly small list. The list never gets smaller as all six owners will tell you there is always something to spend your money on. Good luck with the car it sounds as if it is comming together nicely James -------------  Sunday 10th July Brooklands Sharkfest and Big Coupe Day. http://635csi.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ - Coupe Events
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from me 
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 10-June-2004 at 21:40
You are a glutton for punishment. May you be forever plagued with braking problems.... -------------
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Posted By: johne
Date Posted: 11-June-2004 at 10:36
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chaps - thanks - will cut off a few fingers so I can get access to have a look at the lights at the weekend! - Any known faults causing one side of the washers / wipers to be dead - and the other side slow and labouring? As the lights / reflectors themselves are somewhat dull / lenses chipped & cracked - are the light units themselves easily replaced? how much? (I'll change the bulbs when I get new lights I think) Any views on the costs for a radiator (1986 635CSi - auto)? - I should probably get this sorted asap. I replaced the viscous fan coupling - which stopped the needle climbing much above halfway in traffic, but as it usually sits at about a third when on the move, there's still a problem. Rad is old with a leak - which is suspect, and rad cap is also dodgy! On the wheels front - is it worth keeping hold of the original metrics? what for? - apart from the fact it seems a shame to start losing original bits of the car - but I won't be shelling out for set of metric tyres in a hurry! cheers ------------- john |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 11-June-2004 at 14:09
Check that contacts are clean first. If wipers are slow / labouring despite clean contacts, that could also be a sign that the drive motors are on the way out. They're about £120 + VAT per side....
This will eventually happen to non-ellipsoid units. They're a pain to replace.
In the region of about £160 for a new radiator. Insist that it's made by BEHR, which is OEM-spec.
Keep your metrics for show use, and slowly shell out for new tyres as and when you can afford them. Otherwise, for daily use, try and find a set of: 7" x 15"; or 7" x 16"; or 8" x 16"; or 8" x 17" (i.e. imperial-sized) alloys. Offset should be in the range 20mm to 24mm. You can of course fit a wider pair at the rear, but I prefer having the same width all the way round so that I can carry a spare in the same size without balancing worries. -------------
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Posted By: johne
Date Posted: 11-June-2004 at 14:59
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horsetan, Motormec have quoted £118 +Vat for the rad, £4 for the cap, £13 for the thermostat - seems affordable - but no idea what brand! - does it matter? As for the wheels - I've got 17" Alpinas now - but the knackered Avon shod metrics are cluttering up the garage. Do they add any value if and when it comes to selling? when you say its a pain replacing the lights - how much of a pain??! - this isn't a critical job yet - but might be worth it while i'm in there delving around with the wash / wipe system. ------------- john |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 11-June-2004 at 16:36
Motormec usually carry OEM-spec parts (fairly rare that they don't), so they should be able to confirm whether the radiator is a Behr or not. I have to say that I don't know (yet) of "alternative quality" radiators, but will make the commonsense point that, in a car as costly as the Six, it's generally better to stick with OEM in critical parts.
In reality, no. But if your car has been maintained throughout to BMW requirements, is a concours / "show quality" example, has FSH, etc., then technically, the TRX metrics should be present. Please don't laugh, but I've consistently run on Avon metrics because: 1) I don't drive particularly fast; I waft around instead. 2) Getting hold of imperial alloys which actually look well on the car - other than proper Alpinas - was a frustrating task. It was only recently that a friend - who also bought a 1983 Six mainly on the strength of having seen mine - bought me a used set of BMW 7 x 15" Style 31 alloys, as used on many E39 Fives. The appearance of these will mean cheaper tyres, and the styling isn't so aggressive as to frighten the horses. 3) I had to drop the idea of obtaining Alpinas (and only proper ones will do, not replicas) simply because I could not (and still cannot) afford the kind of prices being demanded for them secondhand. The one set I did try were far too wide (10" x 17"!!) at the rear, so they were returned to the seller.
OK, with pre-"Highline" UK cars made / sold before 1988, you have the four original "free-form" headlights. These are mounted in metal frames (usually sprayed the same colour as the rest of the body). The connectors are 3-pin, and are "protected" by metal bucket-shaped covers. What happens over time - particularly in a car which has spent most of its life resting outside - is that: 1) the glass can develop a crack or two and/or goes cloudy with age; 2) the reflectors lose their lustre; 3) the "bucket" covers (being metal) corrode and seize on to the headlamp bodies, making access to the connectors difficult or near-impossible; 4) the mounting frames also rust. This is why I regard them as a pain. I had them on my '83, and changing bulbs usually resulted in scraped skin or drawn blood; see point (3). When my Six went in for refurbishment, I was lucky enough to obtain (from a scrapped "Highline") a complete set of ellipsoid projector-lens headlights (which have plastic bodies), plus high beams, plus mounting frames (which are also made of a robust plastic). Also included were the wiper and drive motor assemblies. These went directly into the existing spaces. The final result has been seen a number of times on the Internet, and I make no apologies for flashing it up again here for your examination: 
The ellipsoids have 2-pin connector plugs and sockets throughout, and are so much more accessible, because all the main components are formed from plastic. There is no metal to corrode and seize up. You do need to modify your existing wiring; the restorers I used told me it was no great problem doing this. At least one other UK Six owner (he's got a silver M635CSi, 1986 model, I think) has done the same conversion to ellipsoids. Lighting quality is, in my opinion, somewhat sharper. I have not yet had excuse to use the Osram Silverstar bulbs which James has raved about, but no doubt they will improve lighting even further when the time comes. If you cannot find a complete secondhand set of ellipsoids, then the only thing which will make you think twice about buying a new set is the cost - currently about £440 + VAT, not including wipers or drive motors. -------------
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Posted By: johne
Date Posted: 11-June-2004 at 17:26
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Nice motor - wanna swap!!!? I sourced my 235/45/17 - 20 spoke Alpinas on eBay - refurbed - with new centres, complete with tyres for less than the cost of a new set of metric tyres, which I needed anyway! - money well spent I say. As for the lights - wow - £440 + Vat + wiper assemblies - I think I'll try the skinned knuckles, WD40 approach to fixing what I've got first! What exactly does 'ellipsoid' mean (If anything more than 'not circular'!) - are they different to OE lights? ------------- john |
Posted By: Brucey
Date Posted: 11-June-2004 at 22:04
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-'Ellipsoid' means being of solid form with elliptical shape. This type of headlight is meant to give a slightly better beam pattern, and was OE on later 'highline' 635's. Nice to see a picture of Horsetan's thirsty '6' again....
-I wonder, do all sixes like Guinness, or do some prefer other tipples? cheers ------------- ~~~~~~~ Brucey ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 12-June-2004 at 16:24
You'll be lucky. There's too much history and I've spent too much on this car to ever want to part with it. Even if some mad eejit (there's one born every minute) came to me tomorrow with 10 grand in cash, I'd think twice before letting it go.
You were lucky, then. I've never had any luck with Alpinas. As I wrote earlier, I will not use replicas; they are fit only for 3-Series cars.
Be prepared to be a blood donor occasionally, then. -------------
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Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 12-June-2004 at 16:32
Still averaging 26mpg. That 30mpg level is still far away....
Experiments continue, using Guinness... Extra Cold.....  -------------
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Posted By: Goldryder
Date Posted: 12-June-2004 at 17:16
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Thankfully my headlight wash/wipe actually does work, albeit a bit on the slow side, so not going to play with that on the premise that if it ain't broke, don't mess with it. As for the Avon metrics, got a new set on mine and still waiting to go and play...so will inevitably swear at them constantly once the car is out and about.
(Still waiting for the dodgy non existant welding to be rectified and the MOT again) ------------- October 2-6 2008 - Houston, Texas - Long Distance Wedding March 15-April 1 2009 - Transatlantic Cruise October 10-25 2009 - China, Korea, Taiwan & Japan Cruise |
Posted By: Brucey
Date Posted: 12-June-2004 at 21:16
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-note, I only get 30mpg on long runs when I am able to cruise without stop /go/ stop (not the M25 then). On shorter runs (<15miles) I get 22-24mpg or worse still on the very shortest. -also my car has a 3.07 diff and the EH gearbox, which takes the torque converter out of play over 100kph. The gearing is also about 4% higher even than normal for these bits because of the slightly larger diameter tyres that are fitted to my 635. -all this adds up to reasonable fuel economy on long runs despite the fact I know I have a slight rough spot in the throttle angle pot. (unless of course its the 'snake oil' gadget rattling round in the fuel tank.....) -I've never actually seen my '6' supping a pint, but beer has been known to mysteriously disappear without my clear recollection.....(shades of 'the third policeman' creeping in here...) cheers
------------- ~~~~~~~ Brucey ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 13-June-2004 at 16:09
My 26mpg comes from very mixed driving. Keeping that economy meter needle pointing to the left of the 30 mpg mark is a real challenge! -------------
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Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 13-June-2004 at 22:06
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The blame for my 16 mpg average has been levelled at a faulty fuel pressure regulator. New one being fitted on Tuesday. Having said all that, my Audi A6 2.4 auto only managed 21-23 under the same conditions so it will be interesting to see how much difference an extra litre makes. ------------- AndyS Live each day as if it's your last - one day it will be. http://www.photostick.co.uk/view-933_BaurSig1.jpg" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 13-June-2004 at 23:08
What, an extra litre of fuel?  Not much, I would have thought....-------------
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Posted By: johne
Date Posted: 19-June-2004 at 16:29
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OK - problems again!! Ive got the driver side grill off and found the 3 large screws that hold the headlight unit in. After removing these and the connectors on the rear I simply can't see a way to get the (now loose) unit out of the available space. Do I need to separate the lights from the wiper / motor? How? Any instructions on removing headlamp units gratefully received!!! cheers ------------- john |
Posted By: Derek Thurston
Date Posted: 21-June-2004 at 23:01
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A couple of useful ( ? ) tips for removing the lamp units in one lump, remove the bottom front grille screw bracket ( you only need to loosen the holding screw ) Remove the horn as well, this will give you a bit more room to jiggle it out! Assemble in reverse order, thats a laugh! Good luck, Delboy! ------------- Delboy |
Posted By: johne
Date Posted: 22-June-2004 at 09:07
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Derek, thanks - I did remove the grill bracket (but not the horn - I'll give that a try next) - Does yours have the wash / wipe system attached to the light assembly? I spent a good half hour 'jiggling' but the wiper assembly seems to make the whole thing just too big to get out!! Is there a step by step guide for getting at the lights & wash/wipe system anywhere? cheers ------------- john |
Posted By: Dan Stevens
Date Posted: 22-June-2004 at 16:54
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Getting the complete unit out in one go requires a lot of fiddly manouevering. You don't have to do any more than remove that bracket, although it may seem like it.
When you come to dismantle the lights, you will probably find that everything has corroded quite badly - the worst parts will be the backs of the lights themselves, and the adjusters. Getting the lamps free of the adjusters is quite difficult, and sometimes it's much easier to force (and break) the plastic socket that takes the ball end of the screw-thread adjuster. They clip into the lamp body. You can get them for pennies from a dealer, and replacing all of them is much easier, and quicker, than trying to save the originals. If you're really keen, strip the metal frames with an acid-based rust remover (try Swarfega's Metal Cleaner or similar) and paint them with spary-on Smoothrite, over a zinc-paint base. As you can tell, I have done all of this on my car.... As for the wash-wipe, try the relay behind the off side indicator housing. It's a common cause of failed washwipe systems. Cheer Dan |
Posted By: johne
Date Posted: 22-June-2004 at 18:17
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Dan - cheers obviously more 'jiggling' afoot!! I know the lights are in a bad way - although they work fine the bulb holders seem to just be resting / pushed onto the badly corroded reflectors - they don't seem attached in any way any more! Hoping that a set of highline lights / wipers will become available at just the right time for £20 !! wishful thinking I know anyway - that'll have to wait - its off to get the inner wings sorted out next week. ------------- john |
Posted By: johne
Date Posted: 22-June-2004 at 21:48
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would you believe it - 5 minutes of jiggling and both units are now out.... now what?! the glass reflector units are all shot - but the buckets / wiper motors etc. all seem pretty clean. Can I simply get more modern replacement glass / bulb holder units (ellipsoid?) and bolt straight on to the existing mounts / wiper assemblies using original chrome surrounds - which are perfect? how much £££? advice from anyone who has replaced the lights would be appreciated
------------- john |
Posted By: Dan Stevens
Date Posted: 23-June-2004 at 09:53
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Cheapest way of doing it is to use s/h lights. Either try someone who's breaking a 6 (try ebay - there's a couple on there) or get yourself to a breakers yard and find yourself an E30/E21 3 series or an E28 5 series. Some of them share the headlamps with the 6, but take your old units with you, because although they may look the same, the fixings etc are sometimes in a different place.
Dan |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 23-June-2004 at 16:10
Not at £20, they won't. Expect £100 or over for a good working set. -------------
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Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 23-June-2004 at 16:12
The short answer is "No" if you're thinking about putting ellipsoid "inserts" in. They will not mate with the old metal mounting frames. You can re-use the chrome surrounds on a full ellipsoid set - that's what I did on mine. -------------
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Posted By: johne
Date Posted: 25-June-2004 at 18:38
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me again! anyone got any idea where I can get a pair of outer (dipped beam) headlight reflectors from - I've tried everywhere I can think of but can't find a matched pair anywhere. Can only find 1 bosch and 1 hella. Dan - 3 / 5 series mountings are different! - but I might have to revert to them - and drill out my light mountings to match the fixing locations on the 3/5 version of the lights. ------------- john |
Posted By: Horsetan
Date Posted: 29-June-2004 at 12:58
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Anyone needing the nearside "Highline" headlight set might be interested in http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=9837&item=2483025547&rd=1 - THIS -------------
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Posted By: Dan Stevens
Date Posted: 29-June-2004 at 13:02
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Some 3 and 5 Series mountings are different, some are the same - that's the headlamps themselves, not the associated brackets and adjusters. I managed to replace three of my 6's lights with ones from E21/E30 3 and E28 5 Series - you just have to find the right ones! Believe me, it can be done.
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Posted By: johne
Date Posted: 29-June-2004 at 13:15
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i spoke with Hella direct (01295 272233) who have given me a couple of their local distributors to deal with. Although (outer) reflectors aren't available here, and BMW can't tell me when they will order any more, Hellas agents can order direct from Germany with a 2-3 wk delivery. In the meantime Fritz's Bits have found me a set of lights and a wiper motor - so I think I'm sorted - apart from mounting / adjusting the new lights with all the little plastic bits! ------------- john |