Big brakes??
Printed From: Bavarian-Board.co.uk - BMW Owners Discussion Forum
Category: Technical & Model Specific Forums
Forum Name: BMW ///M Power
Forum Discription: Ask your BMW M Power Technical Questions here (M1, M2 hybrids, M3, M5 & M6)
URL: http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=6584
Printed Date: 07-May-2024 at 03:07
Topic: Big brakes??
Posted By: matt.m3
Subject: Big brakes??
Date Posted: 28-March-2004 at 17:24
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After some advice, Thinking about buying big brakes for my E30 M3 cab. I Want to use an Ap set up but they don't sell a brake kit for the M3. I've found some companies that do a bespoke kit for around £1300 (4 pot) to £1800 (6 pot) but I can get a large dicount from AP on the caliper and discs through my company also I'm skilled engineer working for an F1 company so machining my own bells and brakets is no prob. What I need is some technical info (dimensions) on the parts required. Any help would be appreciated as it would save me the best part of a grand. Cheers Matt. ------------- Matt |
Replies:
Posted By: BMG M3
Date Posted: 28-March-2004 at 17:39
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I can't help out on the specs , but www.s14shop.de sell a AP brake kit for E30 M3's that use their 4 pot calipers with 305mm and 330 mm size dics for 15" and 16" wheels . There was a place in the states selling the custom E30 M3 kit also , but I cant find the link.
Something tells me you are going to get a lot of PM's about this kit, should you be able to get a discount from AP and manufacture your own bells and brackets 
Try asking for the exact specs over at www.s14.net should you have no luck here. |
Posted By: matt.m3
Date Posted: 28-March-2004 at 18:08
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Cheers I'll give them a try, I just hate paying someone lots of cash for some thing that's not all that difficult!!!! If it all works out I might get a bit more adventurous and make some high lift cams and stuff. ------------- Matt |
Posted By: 215m3
Date Posted: 28-March-2004 at 19:15
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Matt
What F1 team do you work for? |
Posted By: matt.m3
Date Posted: 28-March-2004 at 22:43
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Unfortunatley not Williams BMW!!! I work for Mclaren which is not doing all that well at the moment My brothers also work in the industry BAR so is a bit of a family thing.
------------- Matt |
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Posted By: 215m3
Date Posted: 28-March-2004 at 23:32
| A colleague at work, her father is the floorshop manager at BAR. |
Posted By: matt.m3
Date Posted: 29-March-2004 at 00:19
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Is he the machine shop manager? or one of the top bods? My brother should know him. ------------- Matt |
Posted By: 215m3
Date Posted: 29-March-2004 at 07:12
| Think he is in charge of the guys that do all the work on the cars in the workshop. He's not a director. |
Posted By: lancelotII
Date Posted: 29-March-2004 at 09:17
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I would be seriously interested in a disk and bell setup for my M3. They would have to fit inside the 15" wheel though and I think 4 pots would be sufficient. There is nothing wrong with the stock setup as far as braking efficiency goes but the stock disk setup is *****. Edited to remove objectionable language, please read the forum guidelines ------------- |
Posted By: matt.m3
Date Posted: 29-March-2004 at 13:53
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If I can't find the technical info I require as the companies that manufature the bells and stuff don't like to give too much away!!! then I may just buy some and reverse engineer them. At the moment I can get between 22 and 26% discount on any AP stuff so it would be well worth taking this route and I will also use far superior grades of ally than what is offered by the aftermarket tuners. I'll let you all know how I get on. ------------- Matt |
Posted By: lancelotII
Date Posted: 29-March-2004 at 15:53
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Matt, I have some 15" wheel dimensions (courtesy of Uwe, who has done some investigation himself and produced some cracking drawings).
So far I have been told that you need 50mm clearence between disk and wheel, whcih means that the biggest you can get on a 15" is about a 320mm disk. Having looked at manufacturers sites, Wilwood produce decent info on their website as do AP re disk and caliper dimensions. I am really keen to do this, so if you need a willing volunteer/guinea pig, drop me a PM. Rgds Roops |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 29-March-2004 at 16:27
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2nd guinea pig here! (depending on cost as I am ready to bolt on my DIY conversion) ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: cecotto147
Date Posted: 29-March-2004 at 17:11
| Uwe, I'm intrigued, what is your DIY creation? |
Posted By: Sunny
Date Posted: 29-March-2004 at 21:16
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Guys,
Geoff steel racing does a AP Brake kit that fits under the standard 15 wheels. Maybe try to get some info from him about the size of the kit!!! Also I am willing to be the 3rd Guinea Pig!!!! |
Posted By: stevesingo
Date Posted: 29-March-2004 at 21:56
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Sorry to butt in but saw this http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=TMSE30BREMBO - Turner Big Brake
They might be able to tell you what caliper they use. |
Posted By: BMG M3
Date Posted: 29-March-2004 at 22:13
Thats a Brembo caliper and it won't fit under a 16" E30 M3 wheel . It may fit under another type of 16" wheel but not the stock basketweavers , I asked them . I'll make a post over at www.s14.net and see if anyone there is running AP's with Bells and knows the specs.Click http://www.s14.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5133 - Here to see . |
stevesingo wrote:Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 31-March-2004 at 11:27
| Didn't Andy'O have AP's fitted to his? |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 31-March-2004 at 12:15
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Found this at http://www.bgdevelopments.co.uk/ - http://www.bgdevelopments.co.uk/
Brake Kits B.G. Developments can design and supply bespoke Brake Kits to complement the range of A P Racing Formula Brake Kits covering makes and models that AP Racing do not currently supply. Examples of these are the BMW E30 M3, Aston Martin V8's {early models}, a Front Kit for the new Aston Martin DB7 that does not require a suspension change and the Nissan Sunny GTiR. We also supply 362mm Disc Conversions for the Subaru Imprezza, Mitsubishi Lancer and Nissan Skyline. might be of some help also http://www.taylorautosport.com/frames2.htm - click here http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e30m3/883926-1.html - and her from roadfly it looks as if John W might be able to help here . . . |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 31-March-2004 at 12:48
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http://www.alcon.co.uk/frameset.asp - Alcon is worth a look ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: lancelotII
Date Posted: 31-March-2004 at 14:07
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Guys, I think before everyone goes "link crazy" there are a couple of things to consider. Most of the kits out there are designed for 16" wheels or bigger. Personally that's not my bag. I want a setup that will fit inside the 15" wheels and has 2 piece disks. I spoke to BG, and sure they can offer stuff but what they offered me wouldn't fit inside a 15" wheel. Wilwood make loads of stuff for Nascar, they have to run 15" wheels so that is a good place to start looking, their catalogue is fantastic and I am sure a set of Nascar brakes would probably work just fine on an e30 M3...........
I think if you want big brakes and are prepared to spend money on new wheels then there are a fair number of options out there. If you want a setup to fit inside a 15" wheel then your options are more limited and a bit of clever engineering may be required, which is where most vendors don't appear to want to go. |
Posted By: M BLUR
Date Posted: 31-March-2004 at 14:46
Hey Matt - if you were ever willing to do this sort of thing then I'm sure there a few members who'd be interesting in you fabricating sets ups for us track loons.. Rgds ------------- www.lbmracing.com 
1998 Zeemax M Roadster 2005 X5 3.0D Sport 1991 Esprit SE Race car |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 31-March-2004 at 17:24
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I'm only interested in helping out matt.m3. Edited to remove objectionable language, please read the forum guidelines ------------- http://www.s14power.com/ |
Posted By: matt.m3
Date Posted: 31-March-2004 at 18:51
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Guys To fill fill you in, BG developements were the first company I spoke to due to them being local. The kit that they offer is a basic 4-pot AP caliper with blank mounting lugs that they machine to suit the M3 (not radial mounted) therefore they only can offer 304mm dia discs. This kit weighs in around £1275 inc vat with does not include hard anodised bells (optional ££) and braided hoses are also extra!!! that was the reason I am looking doing my own. I have offerd Bob Green (owner of BG) the use my car as a working project and I'll do all the machining, 3D modelling and CNC programming in return for help from BG on the basic design concept. So hopfully we can strike a deal and everyone will benefit. I'll update as soon as I get some feedback from Bob. ------------- Matt |
Posted By: M BLUR
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 12:29
Nice - though I'd hope the kit could be adapted to a larger diameter disk to suit other models...best of luck for the weekend.. ------------- www.lbmracing.com
1998 Zeemax M Roadster 2005 X5 3.0D Sport 1991 Esprit SE Race car |
Posted By: smckeown
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 17:15
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HiSpec are a competitor to willwood and i'd recommend them. I have some 4 pots on my track day 205 and they are amazing. They seem to do an http://www.hispecmotorsport.co.uk/Road%20Kits/bmw.htm - E30 M3 kit also. Ive had APs on my Scooby in the past, i think in the future i'd save myself some cash and get some nice gold adonised Hispec's instead you've got to admit this is a sexy looking caliper cheers sean ------------- track-monkey.co.uk |
Posted By: lancelotII
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 17:20
| I am speaking to Hi-Spec at the moment about a kit for 15" wheels with 2 piece disks. Should have news soon. |
Posted By: matt.m3
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 21:47
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Jonny, Big discs are the way to go, thats why I'm embarking on this adventure. because I'm running 18's my set-up is going to be 342mm dia discs 32mm wide with six pot calipers with four pots at the rear. Sean the Hi-specs look the biz. If the deal with BG doesn't come off I'll look at what they have to offer.
------------- Matt |
Posted By: adwo
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 21:54
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Please bear in mind that with most big brake setups the discs are very wide. This means they will most likely touch the control arm knuckle and the steering arm ball joint... I have a Wilwood 330mm with 6-pot calipers and aluminum bell setup for sale (used) but this requires work on the items mentioned above. I will just keep my Bremsport 315mm 4-pot set up... Also the width of the calipers causes interference problems with wheels which have a 'lip'... HTH, Adwo |
Posted By: matt.m3
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 22:23
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Adwo, Does your brembo set-up have solid discs or two piece? I'd be intrested in some info on your wilwoods, what was the caliper offset? if the disc is wider then why wasn't the offset from the mounting point to the centre line of the caliper larger to accommodate this? did they miss-sell you an inappropriate brake kit?
------------- Matt |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 22:25
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342mm??? what do you try to stop with that? and the more important question, which tyres are grippy enough to get the full benefit of this setup. I think this is well OTT.
no offense, just my opinion ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: matt.m3
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 22:52
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I'm with you on that, but if we weren't OTT then we would all be driving Corsa's with Lexus rear lights! No seriously the only reason is because it won't cost me much more to go six pots and the next stage is to slap a supercharger on her so I want to make sure the brakes are well up to the job. Plus I'm all or nothing thats why I had my first BM at 18, twelve years later and the passion is still in my blood!!!!!! Tell me if I'm wrong???? ------------- Matt |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 01-April-2004 at 23:03
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If I would be in your position I would worry how to get the supercharger conversion running (and lasting!)before I would think aoubt the brakes. Talk to one of my friends in Germany how has just blown his third supercharged engine........... ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: lancelotII
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 09:28
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I am kind of with Uwe on this. Biggest is not always best. I am sure with 18"s you can fit monster brakes, but you have already added a shed load of weight with those wheels, monster brakes add even more unsprung weight that your suspension now has to deal with. In conjunction with uneven road surfaces, your springs and shocks are going to be working double-time to keep that mass under control. Surely the best approach is the smallest brake setup you can fit, that provides sufficient braking for the car.
I have said this before, the stock setup on the e30 M3 is pretty good in terms of stopping power. However, the disk design and setup is pants, which is why we all have garages full of trashed disks. Therefore, I would have thought a lightweight setup (AP, Wilwood, Hi-Spec) with 2 piece disks and 4 pot calipers would suffice for most. Not only by improving the braking and longevity of the components but also by reducing un-sprung weight and providing better ride and suspension effect. |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 09:59
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Weight is really an issue. I am upgrading to 300x25 from 285x22 and just by lifting the two different disks around you notice straight away that the 300 disk is much more heavy than the M3 disk. So I would really like to lift one of these 342x35 monsters! Okay, it is sitting on an alloy bell, but still a lot of cast iron there. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: adwo
Date Posted: 02-April-2004 at 16:29
Matt, It's Bremsport not Brembo. Have a look at the pics at: http://www.xs4all.nl/~adwo/Evo%202/DSC00198.JPG - http://www.xs4all.nl/~adwo/Evo%202/DSC00198.JPG Just browse the directory for more pics.. Regarding the Wilwood set up, it uses the giant GN III calipers and 330mm x 35mm discs. I test fitted them but there is not enough clearance. KK motorsports in Germany sell steering control arms with a different pick up point attached to the strut housing. You need to buy a set of those to clear all suspension points.. HTH, Adwo |