I Have a 633csi 1980 henna red that i need to sell. Does anybody have an idea of value please?

61k miles - only have MOT certificates from 1996 to confirm this

No MOT or TAX

Very good condition all round

New calipers, brake pipes and master cylinder

Body welding

Also any suggestions on where best to sell it would be much appreciated.

Cheers

Also car club web site and magasine, Total and BMW Car magasine will get it to the market of people that want to buy this kind of car.

James

I am convinced that there is no such thing as selling a 6 for a profit (unless your name is Delboy Trotter)! Of course the profit we speak of is in enjoyment, not only monetary; but let's considor this:

A few little things: Sill rust, wings, exhaust = £££ - and for what, so someone else can get your car for half of what you have laid out in the last year!

This is why there are so many 6's around that just sit and rot, since the owners can't bare to to take the financial loss that is realised when they sell their beloved car. So they keep it, and keep it until it fails the MOT and then they keep it another 5 years while it becomes a teabag.

The other thing I don't get is why everyone benchmarks the entire range against what a Highline is worth? It is a matter of personal taste, and it is proven that 6 series BMW's have no price guides - its all about condition on an individual car basis, as can be demonstrated by the huge variations in used prices that these cars are fetching.

phb10186 wrote: The other thing I don't get is why everyone benchmarks the entire range against what a Highline is worth?

-I don't understand this either. It seems a bit wrong-headed to me. I mean, if you really NEED a leather covered dash in a heavier car, full of gizmos, and will be severely disappointed with anything else, then  fair enough.

But if not then everything else should be taken on its merits...

cheers

I know, not much of it makes any sense.

But you would need more than an extra 2bhp to make up for the extra weight of a highline.... more like 20bhp (and then you still have the weight on the brakes...)

The good news is that the highline engine was a real step forward in some ways, and is amenable to being remapped. This could give you that extra 20bhp you need....

cheers

You all raise fair points, and I think that a good M635 Highline is probably the best of the lot, although all 50 or so left in the country are in the hands of peole that will keep them until the oil has run out!

That said the car comes from a chrome trimmed era, and I think that chrome is a necessary addition as far as the design goes. The only reason chrome went out of fashion in the late 80's was that bumpers became crappy plastic bits of trim essentially, and the manufacturers convinced the motoring public that de-chroming was the way forward since chrome trim is expensive to produce.

The ultimate clasic is an E-type jag, and the most desirable ones were definately not the latest V12's, but the preceeding 3.8's, so I cant aggree that using the last incarnation of a model is necessarily right.

Highlines do look great, although only in certain colours - e.g Zinnobar red or whatever it is called, since the red and black contrast well. Darker colours look better with chrome, as that provides the contrast.

Henna red - don't talk to me about henna red. May have been a better colour but BMW don't think so cos they don't do the touch up anymore!

There is probably a halfords colour exactly the same, or almost exactly the same. If not a paint mixer might be able to help you.

AndyS wrote: So if you had a big passenger like my little brother (19 stone +) then you'd be in the same position as me . . .

jeez, I'd hate to meet your big brother....

BTW, are you coming to gaydon?

cheers

I have not seen many 6's without headlamp wash/ wipe; although most of them do not work.

I actually confess to making a mistake it was the 4.2 E type that was the most desirable, not the 3.8 as I said. I have always read that the E-type V12 was an unpopular car for Jaguar fans in terms of styling, and thus the earlier ones were more sought after.

Leather dash: If the leather is in good condition, they look great, if its worn and tatty, the plastic ones look better. The leather head lining is a nice touch as well. I have wondered if the leather dash is a normal plastic one just padded and covered; or actually a different dash all together.

I think that a lot of people have considered the M6 to be a classic for a while. The problem with the 6 series has always been the parts prices, insurance, RUST and complexity; and the running costs that result from these (although compared to the new cars it's obviously very basic).

Unfortunately, most people who can afford to run a 6 can also afford to buy a new sports car/ SUV, so the only people to opt for the 6 are those who especially like it as a model/ brand. Nobody could say that a 6 series was a 'practical classic', and thus the practicality issues damage the demand and therefore the prices. Like anything, it is just simple supply and demand economics.

This is why the 2002 represents such a solid buy, and other things such as MGB's, etc.

The 635 belongs in a club with the XJS, the Merc SEC, and even older cars such as the Jensen Interceptor - I don’t think any of these models fetch interesting money - although they have given their owners a lot of enjoyment.

I also don’t think that the advent of the new 6 series made any difference to E24 prices, or ignited interest in the model to any significant degree, or to the degree that us old 6 owners were hoping for

Clearly the M635 had the heritage and the rarity, and it will always fetch a good premium over the standard car, but the success of the M cars to date has been huge, and this obviously has a knock on effect on cars made in the past.

Lastly; Ebay has in my oppinion damaged used prices, since a load of crap examples sell cheaply, and it is these that are forming the underpinnings of used values. When the occassional exceptional example gets listed on Ebay the reserve is rarely met. Ebay is great for selling certain things, but not others. Try going to Munich Legends and buying a used 635 for Ebay money.

phb10186 wrote: .....The problem with the 6 series has always been the parts prices....

1 new expansion tank ....*tick*

2 brake pressure sensor switches.....*tick*

1 lorryload of suspension parts....*tick*

1 set of new tyres.....

What a great attitude you have.

The 4.2 series 1 E-Type convertible was the most desirable - it had more mid-range torque than the earlier 3.8, as well as an uprated clutch and gearbox with synchro-mesh on all 4 gears. This enhanced the drivability hugely.

The V12 lost a lot of the desirable styling cues such as the position of the lights, and not to mention the grille, which is reflected in the used prices accross the entire E-type range.

Where do you get your information from?

There's not only 50 left. 

There were 524 made in RHD.  There are "tales", but no evidence of some of these not actually making it to the UK, but going to other RHD markets.

There are 24 in Australia - all exported from the UK, leaving a base of 500 here

Based on old DVLA figures, Howard Walker reckoned that it is likely that there are about  300 RHD M635s left, but I think that might be optimistic.  I know of 4 broken for spares or dismantled in the last year.

The figure of 101 RHD Highlines produced  has been suggested.  On the basis of what appears to be the general survival rates, PHB10186's "I think that a good M635 Highline is probably the best of the lot, although all 50 or so left in the country are in the hands of peole that will keep them until the oil has run out!" is probably a fair estimate of how many M635 Highlines are left in the UK and of the owner demographic.

The M635 is the same as all other sixers. They  rust just the same and cost just the same to put right. Therefore, the same as other sixes, there are loads lying about in varying degrees of dismantling/storage. 

I'll buy any and every M635 that's for sale at £1500.  If you don't want the one you know of, please put him on to me. If its saveable, I'll save it, if not it'll help keep others on the road and assist in paying for the body restoration of mine.

m3Cecotto wrote: ....There are 24 in Australia - all exported from the UK, leaving a base of 500 here.....

Make that 300, as you wrote.....

I found a C-plated Alpine White one hidden away, and rusting, in West London a few months ago. Owner still says he wouldn't take less than five grand for it, even in its current bad state! Here it is:

Once upon a time, this same M635CSi was known to the BMW CCGB's "M-Register".....

m3Cecotto wrote: .....I'll buy any and every M635 that's for sale at £1500.  If you don't want the one you know of, please put him on to me. If its saveable, I'll save it, if not it'll help keep others on the road and assist in paying for the body restoration of mine.

You an' me both, pal! And I've got just about enough spare space on the drive to fit it in....

The reason the price of a late 635 highline is used as a yardstick is because, appart from an M6, these are the cars that attract the highest prices. Why? well it probably down to two things. Firstly later car are more likely to have less rust. As rust is the E24s biggest problem it stands to reason people will want a car with as little of it aas possible. Secondly BMWs are luxury cars and most of the people that buy them want the leather and the electrics. Ok so some of you are not bothered by electric seats and a leather dash but most of the people who buy these cars will be and they will pay more for a car with a higher spec.

I don't know why but didn't a lot of people think that Jaguar spoiled the E type by fitting a V12?

AndyS wrote: I've just found my shoulders are too wide to fit in a TR6 .

My Boss has a TR6. It's ok but you can tell that by that time there were serious issues with the build quality at Triumph/BL. A bit too Beard & flat cap classic car enthusiast for me, but I can see why they appeal to some.

AndyS wrote: ....No beard but I do have a flat cap somewhere.

...and string-back driving gloves?

5KXO wrote: And AA membership. Sorry but almost anything bearing an MG or Triumph badge is, to me, a sack of poorly made and badly executed junk. Cars like the TR6, MGB and Stag were crap 30 years ago and they have not got any better. Who the hell pays £10'000 for some ghastly MGB Roadster when you could have a nice R107 Merc SL instead or the most perfect 325i E30 Convertible. Who?? Classic car mags have a lot to answer for - it's time one of them stood up and said 'Sorry guys, but we were wrong. These cars are all utter sh*te"

Don't beat around the bush, just say what you think!  

Cars like MGs and TR6s are polular classics becuase they are cheap to own. You can get all the parts you need cheaply and although they are not that well built neither were a lot of their contemparories.

My Boss bought his TR6 for £2500. It was a LHD import from California. He got it converted to RHD and had a few things done to it bringing the total bill to £3500. He's owned it for 3 years and other than regular servicing, tyres and some leather seats it's cost him nothing. Ok so he only does about 4000 miles a year and it's not a mint car, but as usable classics go it's pretty good.

You can buy a decent condition, usable MGB for round £5k. I know because I know someone who sold one for that and it was a very nice car. Well above average.  What kind of SL can you get for that money? Also an SL will cost you a lot more to run.

The same cars always come up in these debates, the interesting thing is that there are no true classics of today, and so as the years go on, the same classics keep getting older.

15 years ago a TR6, MGB and Stag would have been talked about as a classic option - and now...pretty much the same story.

Is the MGF going to be a future classic? I dont think so. What about a BMW Z3 or Z4? Very difficult in my oppinion.

The practical classics of today are the VW Golf MK 2 GTI 8V, Mazda MX-5 mark 1, and other bits and pieces such as CRX VTECs and MK1 Toyota MR2's, and possibly even the Smart ForTwo and Roadster in a few years, but mostly Japanese.

The Boy racer/Chav movement have ruined many cars' chances of classic status by either crashing them, or making them look like the Starship Enterprise with blacked-out windows.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Jag XK8's and the like as running costs keep driving the old school practical classic man to other things.

I think as running costs keep rising as fast as they are now, or even faster, 2 wheeled transport will become ever more popular - with SUV's dying out the fastest. The BMW C1 moped will be one of the most appealing practical classics if this happens.

AndyS wrote: Modern cars aren't designed to grow old gracefully. All the electronics will kill them off when they start to go wrong. It's a good point though, what will todays youngsters be looking to buy as a weekend classic when they hit middle age?

'PS2' I expect...

cheers

I think some more modern cars that are getting close to classic status now are the MK1 MX5, 205 GTI, Mk1 and 2 GTI, E30 325 sport, Escort cosworth, Sierra RS500, Clio Williams, E30 M3 to name but a few.

Cars that are around today that I think will become classics in the future are the Mini (unfortunately), Clio V6, Clio 172/182, Mk2 MX5, Most recent MR2, MGF & MGTF, Porsche Boxster, Focus RS etc

Despite modern cars complicated electronics their superior build quality will more than make up for this. Gone are the days when you need to worry about replacing the sills on your car after 5 years and rebuilding the engine after 100,000 miles.

Most new engines in german made cars should last at least 200k unless not looked after. Even a ford engine these days will probabaly go round the clock twice if it has regular maintenance. So engines may be pricey but many cars should last for a lot of years without having to have a new engine. Mind your point about the cost of an audi engine may be why certain german cars have failed to reach the status many people think they should. After all an E24 is a hugely expensive car to maintain, whereas an equivalent age MG is beer money to keep on the road. 

I remember reading an artical about a TR4 that had done 400k. I was stunned, until I read that it was on it's 4th engine rebuild and it's second body restoration.

I used to know a chap with a Mercedes W123 5 cylinder 3.0 diesel, that did 490,000 miles mainly in London traffic. All the mechanicals were original, except for the auto transmission (which was rebuilt once). Ok so the rear diff was a bit loud - but it still managed to go 100 Mph and return about 35 Mpg on the combined cycle.

The car was eventually knicked and never seen again.

I am not sure that engines longevity has changed all that much, if anything a Merc does less now than it used to, so do VW engines and most of the non-Japanese lumps.

I think that the Japanese have come first in the build quality race - Ok so 20 years ago when the metal protection processes were not great they rusted, but now the boddies are fine, and the engines last and last, probably better than anything else on the road. 

It was not uncommon to see a Nissan Bluebird with 250-300K, and you can easily find Honda Accords, Mazda 626's and Toyota Carinas/ Previas with 200K still going strong.

This is why Toyota are the largest car company in the world, and produce about 6 million cars annually.

I had a Polo as a rental car 2 years ago fitted with a 1.2 3 cylinder engine, you had to thrash it to keep up with traffic, I couldnt see that lasting 200K, although this was probably the worst engine to come out of Germany these days (or wherever they make Polo's now - Probably Hungary or Bulgaria or somewhere like that in Eastern Europe).

I aggree that repairs are what kills old cars, or even fairly new ones these days. There are a lot of cars that get scrapped just because the auto boxes fail, and are uneconomical to repair even when 5-6 years old nowadays.

If you speak to anyone who knows their automatic transmissions, they will tell you that a Lexus has the best box in the world, and there's Toyota again!

I must confess that I do not really know how the big german engines compare with what was made in the 80's, such as the modern BMW and Merc turbo diesels, and 6 and V8 petrols. I have heard a lot of negative views though.

phb10186 wrote: I am not sure that engines longevity has changed all that much, if anything a Merc does less now than it used to, so do VW engines and most of the non-Japanese lumps.

I agree to a point. Mercedes buld quality has gone down and reliabillity has gone with it. VW also does not appear to be making cars like they used to. However cars like Fords and Vauxhalls now have much longer lasting mechanicals that they used too. After all a Zetec engine will easiliy do 150k these days without requiring anything more than normal servicing and a cambelt change. However if you go back to the 70's you'd be lucky to get 100k out of an engine without it requiring a rebuild. A mate of mine has a 3.0 Reliant Scimitar and it's Ford engine and box are frighteningly unreliable and have cost a fortune to keep running. Add to this the fact that a lot of bits are not easilly availible. 

Your point about the Japansese is spot on. They really do make the most reliable cars. I knew a bloke with a Nissan Bluebird that had 200k on the clock. He sold it to a Minicab firm who said that they had seen up to 500k out of Bluebirds. Rubbish to look at, bland to drive but runs for ever.

Peter - I aggree with your comments about Fords 100%; they have improved hugely over the last 10 years. My first car was a Vauxhall Cavalier Mark 2 1.6 - I thought it was gastly, and It never ran properly on anything except 4 star. It pinked all the time, and it used almost as much fuel as the 635.

I remember in 1985 my father bought the Cavalier Mk2, while at the same time his father bought a Mk 2 golf 1.6 auto, and a Honda Accord 2.0 12V EXI auto.

The Golf was about 10 years in front of the Vauxhall, while the Honda was another 10 again. We still have the Golf, it has done about 180K.

The problem with Ford and Vauxhall (and this still applies today really) is that they spend a fortune initially, but then don't spend any more developing the model, they just replace it with another car that cost a fortune to develop about 7 years later. Take the last generation Omega, that cost about 700 million to develop, and was never significantly updated, and it suffered terribly against its competitors. Now look at the Ka - thats a bastaard creation of a biscuit tin, I don't care what anybody says!

I have to say that I would not buy a Vauxhall - what's the point when I can buy Japanese for about the same money?

The same pretty much goes for Ford, although I beleive that they are considerably better than Vauxhall, especially the turbo diesels. I would buy a Focus or Mondeo - but they are still too common for me, I like something a bit more original and individual.

My Wife has a 2001 X reg 1.8 Focus Zetec and it is a great car. Ok so it's not as nice to drive as my 530, but £ for £ it's hard to beat.

"Seriously, if there's ever a following for the non performance Mk3 Escort then I'll be amazed."

There is - its the smashed up old Astra of the same year at the banger race chasing it!

I knew the Ka comment would cause controversy, and as much as dislike the thing, I do agree with your comments - basic, cheap, reliable all yes. Get to Edinburgh before my 6 - well my back would surrender by the time I got to Hemel Hempstead, because I have been in one, and it did.

If I was in any accident above 5 Mph, I would prefer to be in my 6, than a Ka, despite the Ka's airbag!

I don’t dislike it because it is a Ford Ka, I dislike it because it is outperformed by just about everything else on the road now, and please don’t tell me that 90-95 Mph is an honest cruising speed in a Ford Ka, because it clearly is not.

The Mk1 Focus was a very very good car to drive. I have a Mazda 323, and the ride in the Focus put that to shame. But - Most of the early Mk 1 Focuses look shabby now, and unfortunately Fords do not age well with time.

If you want to do a huge mileage in a short time, you probably can’t get better than a Ford. If you want to do a low mileage over a long time, you can’t do better than a Honda Civic. The current German cars are in between.

Also: I knew somebody who used to work in Dagenham for Ford, and he told me that Ford scrapped the interior carpet colour choice on the MK 3 Fiesta from 3 to 1 to net a saving of 7p per car. make of that what you will. Whether they have the same attitude now I don’t know.

The incredibly built Focus C-max IMHO is not that incredibly built.

-anyone would think all our 6ers work perfectly, and we have nothing better to do with our time than get all worked up about various species of dagenham dustbin etc.....

-strange world, huh...?

cheers

Brucey wrote: -anyone would think all our 6ers work perfectly,

LMFAO

Sharkfan

AndyS wrote: Vauxhalls are crap. The Astra is better than a Focus???? Don't make me laugh!

The new Astra is supposed to be very good although I've never driven one. The old model however wasn't a patch on the mk1 focus. My dad has one and I really can't understand why he got it over a Focus.

All cars are bult to a price, well almost all.

eta. wrote: The Ka is a great car and does what it says on the tin.

No frills motoring for a decent price with styling that stands out from the crown and a bit of fun thrown in. I had a Ka as a courtesy car once and it was a good little car.