Let me know the final price as i have a good contact looking into tubular stainless manifold prices for the e30 m3 right now. He can probably beat that.

Notsure if this would be of interest, but it might save alot of people alot of money?

I can't comment for the s14, but the m20 2.5 i bolted it straight on, and just noticed it was more revvy from the lower end which helped me into the power band a tad quicker. i Think it was worth the price, but the standard design is not very good.

 I had mine custommated to a full system by rus, but i have said to him to quote for bolt in replacements with the lambda sensor as mentioned above.

If you system was custom fabbed they may have just used sleeve fit. bmw would at least us flange bolts. check your downpipe and compare to the pic above.

he could get you a custom manifold, or adapt it for you if required.

mailto:russellg@longlife.co.uk - russellg@longlife.co.uk

as mentined elsewhere i am not recommending longlife, i do not know the whole company and every person in it, but rus i do know and highly recomend.

I would be interested but what is timescale please.

karl

Hey no issue. I appreciate your concern. I know what they typically cost, and 950 is disgusting. the group buy price alone says what they must make normally.

having the name is great, and to alot of people this is worth paying extra for.

I agree quality must be top, and it also has to be backed up incase anything did go wrong i.e. on a manifold you really want a lifetime warranty. I just have a close friend who i respect alot for his skill, and also an interest that allows me to pass on what i know.

i'll let you know when i know.

I can't get a tubular from rus for the m30, and for the time the engine will be in, its not worth paying some of the "highly reputable" firms around £800 for the pleasure.

He could fab me one, but the work with the mandrels is alot, and by xmas the turbo should be on anyway.

I would be interested depending on final figures. Will there be any problems with the engine mounts or is all ok?

Just to let you know, the feature on the BTB manifold will be out in the next issue (11th May) so you might want to check that out before you commit. That will tell you most of what you need to know but suffice to say, this is a racing-type exhaust so expect gains in the higher rpm and a little loss low down (which can probably be offset with some tuning work). It is obviously ideal for those of you tuning your engine with cams and bits though. Amazing quality which you can see in the welds alone - it simply doesn't compare to other stuff.

The manifold will bolt up to most off-the-shelf systems AFAIK - standard, Milltek, Supersprint, Scorpion etc, because it was developed using a Supersprint Race which uses the factory fitment points to the original manifold. The Race is probably most suited since it is a twin 50mm setup and flow isn't affected bya downward step in pipe diameter (as it would with the standard exhaust or a smaller aftermarket one (likely a Scorpion). Obviously Sport Evo owners will need to get the flange adjusted to suit the difference in bolt hole location (although it can be fudged on if you really want to)...

All I can say is, and I'm not just plugging BTB here, but if you can get it for the group buy price, you'd be mad not to!

Dave,  my questions:

1.  this header is still a 4-into-2 design, which is not like the original DTM 4-into-1-into a Y pipe-into a dual pipe center section. can you please get some pics from BTB detailing the  MERGES.   each pair of pipes merges into 1 on the header (hence the 4-2 designation). I really like to know how these merges are carried out as it is crucial.

2. is 50 mm the OUTSIDE diameter or the INSIDE diameter?

3. what ensures that all flanges are EXACTLY in a plane? (e.g. lined up).   this is very important and an area aftermarket headers often get wrong. having just one of the 4 flanges slightly out of plane will cause major headaches with your exhaust header studs. and we have problems enough with the stock header...

4. on some of the tubing I see seams running the length of the tube. am I seeing that wrong? there are surely no seams along the length of the tube?

FWIW, on my current engine im running a 50/50 noncat header and I can imagine that a 50/55 *might* be beneficial at some rpm, but the DTM 4-1 header is still too much for my engine, or said another way, my engine isnt enough for a DTM header given my application. I dont have a sprint engine.  Im certainly willing to experiment though, the price is good if the quality is as good as claimed.  My engine and the Nordschleife love to break exhausts :)

John

UweM3 wrote: Check it out! wrote: I can't comment for the s14, but the m20 2.5 i bolted it straight on, and just noticed it was more revvy from the lower end which helped me into the power band a tad quicker. i Think it was worth the price, but the standard design is not very good.  I had mine custommated to a full system by rus, but i have said to him to quote for bolt in replacements with the lambda sensor as mentioned above. If you system was custom fabbed they may have just used sleeve fit. bmw would at least us flange bolts. check your downpipe and compare to the pic above. he could get you a custom manifold, or adapt it for you if required. mailto:russellg@longlife.co.uk - russellg@longlife.co.uk as mentined elsewhere i am not recommending longlife, i do not know the whole company and every person in it, but rus i do know and highly recomend. There is no need to upgrade the manifold on a mild tuned S14. You need 2.5 and some hot cams to see a benefit from fitting a larger manifold. Just a sidenote about longlife. I know an M3 owner with a longlife system. He needs every year a new centre section because of loose baffles. All in warranty of course, but the hassle and time. You can't beat the price of the BTB if you ask me.

hi, i know about this. Please note what i stated at the second post

"as mentined elsewhere i am not recommending longlife, i do not know the whole company and every person in it, but rus i do know and highly recomend." this i should clarify and extend to his materials the lot. the two welsh franchises are totally seperate (and rus isn't welsh lol).

He called me to say he is having difficulty sourcing the e30 m3 manifold but can't see an issue with that price, and obviously a fitting service if necessary.

at the same time he is running up a list for other parts, not sure what is in the pipe but as soon as i hear back i'll update here.

the btb price is excellent if indeed they supply at that price. I will not know the quality of the item rus can get until he knows himself. If it's bad it woudn't be supplied.

Longlife, just like powerflow, and most other companies down to scorpion all have bad names in areas, and well deserved most of the time.

I'm not promoting Longlife, i know the actual owner, and wouldn't but business his way one inch. but the franchise is seperate.

Anyway, i'll get what i can up here for you to decide rather than me waffling on here.

John-M3 wrote:  "check-it-out"  are you selling the same manifold or a different one?  if it is a different one, wouldnt it be best to start your own thread for your own manifold? as for the manifold Nick is showing, I realize it is a prototype. and Im interested. as for my questions 1. please verify 100% if the 50.8 mm diameter is ID or OD.     also what is the wall thickness going to be 1.5 mm? 2. I would like to see steel tubing with *no seams*. for a prototype this is ok and quick to make a header, but for the final product, I dont like to see any seam running the length of the tubing. if it makes the product more expensive, I will pay more to get the better tubing. 3. how the Y-merges are done is important for performance. you could also take measurements from the merge to the exhaust flange at the secondary. and from the merge to the exhaust input flange (primary). compare these lengths with the standard noncat header (320is). 4. Nick, that you are doing a dyno run is great. Im willing to do a before and after on my exhaust system too. Since you are running an airbox and alpha N, I would like to point out that if the exhaust makes a significant difference you will need  2 alpha N maps!  each one optimized for the particular exhaust. Only then can you compare dyno runs of standard header vs. this new header. I also advise optimize the AN map as your engine *might* be in danger otherwise. just a general observation since Ive played with exhaust a bit: On my engine I have a map for the stock exhaust and one for my DTM style exhaust, in both cases the header is the same. but the AN maps (each optimized for the particular exhaust) are much different! if I run th stock exhaust map but use the DTM type exhaust, the engine doesnt run right and is very lean (AFR in the 16s ) obviously the size of the exhaust cam also plays a role in how sensitive it responds to exhaust changes. I dont know which cams you are running, but it might not make such a big difference on stock cams. Which brings us to another point:  on a stock setup you may see little difference with the header, perhaps even a loss is possible, whereas on a wilder engine you could see very significant performance gains. I saw this this weekend on Kevins (barefoots) car. Im sure the single exhaust setup is great for most poeple, but on his engine with motorsport cams, he is giving up power/torque in the 5k-8K rpm band using that setup. But where his exhaust performs better compared to my exhaust is that around 3000 rpm I have a torque dip which is larger than the dip that Kevin has. This dip seems to get larger the larger the diameter of the pipes of the exhaust system as whole. I have his new AN map, I will try to post his map vs. my map this weekend, then you can see there is a significant difference in the fueling. anyway, just throwing that out there to be aware of: you can play a lot with exhaust systems especially when the cams become more extreme. on stock setups, the stock system is hard to beat overall. John

John, im not selling a manifold, and/ or benefiting from it. I wouldn't advertise on the forums, i'm just posting what i know, and trying to help provide an alternative that i know of, and most people probably don't. At the moment i'm still waiting to hear back from Rus so im not sure if he can get these.

It would be a different manifold, but still mandrel bends, stainless etc etc. I would expect it to be of the same quality as per the one i had on my m20 and the one from btb, but again this has to be confirmed to me before i note it on the forums. If he can supply i want a pic and more specifics, as its clear from alot of questions here that people want to know alot about its make-up.

I'm not starting a thread, as that would be advertising it, and im not advertising it. just passing the info on. if they cost 950 to buy standalone and you have to use a group buy to get a decent (excellent) price, then an alternative contact that you don't require a group buy for is always good isn't it?

anyway, i'm not going to update this post until i get some info, so until i do or get a question i can actually answer......

"the sport front pipe is superior"

I assume by front pipe you mean header.

between the 50/50 and the 50/55 header there is no such thing as superior, there is only a difference in application.  look at it this way, the 50/55 was homolagated on a 238 hp car, but the 50/50 ran in DTM on 320 hp cars and on various gr. A and rally cars.  This is not a matter of superior, but of what purpose it serves. e.g. you could say a DTM92 header is superior, and it is on the right engine driven under the right conditions. But it certainly is not superior on a street engine or any S14 engine under 320 hp.  It wont be superior on any s14 that wants to see 6-8k rpm power band.

John

are there any new pictures ?  did they do a seamless version

now?

John

This is very interesting, is it me or no one has mentioned that the primaries are very long! Compared to the 50/50 or 50/55 manifold!

Here is a pic of mines wrapped up and its been modified to fit RHD.

Andrew

im interested. what was the result of the dyno?

John

Demlot, where did you get the ceramic coating done?

John

Sorry guys, slipped my mind.

I'm looking forward to the results with the airbox, cams and Alpha N tuned properly.

Here it is - ignore the lower line...

So just to clarify.

Is the car being dyno tuned on the RR using the std exhaust and then being retuned using the new exhaust.

Karl

>I've learnt in years of tuning is that unless you follow a logical >sequence and plan properly you never know which of bits you have >bought or made actually make you go faster so you just contine to >spend hard earned money on items that look good but give poor >value for money

you have a good point there.  what you are criticising is that "bolt on mentality" generally only takes you so far.  You will never get the big gains. The reason is that what often is done by changing a larger exhaust header with more flow potential and resonance at higher rpms, or larger intake manifold, etc.  is that all you do is change the breathing potential of the engine. But there is nothing inside the engine to back that up. So the potential is not taken advantage of and you dont get the power gain you hoped for.  If you havent made too wild a change, then what usually happens is that you somehow change the power deliver curve.  Peak torque may move somewhat further up the band -- which is good for a track motor.  But, usually, unless you have a FULL ENGINE CONCEPT worked out, you wont get any eye-brow raising. HP really does not add up like people expect it to.   These are already quite fine tuned and efficient engines from the factory.  Now if you were talking about old Chevy motors where they had major restrictions on the engine (cheaply built mass produced engines), then anything you do to those engines basically increases power -- up to a point.  Once you approach the true efficiency of the engine, its becomes the same as with S14s -- it takes matched engine components to squeeze out the power.  But, they have plenty of products available to do that, just look into the racing or drag racing scene and you will find all sorts of stuff.

Im not surprised the header does not do too much on a stock s14, because the stock header has been proven to be very efficient over its working band of 1000-7000 rpm.  The only real flow restriction in the stock exhaust system is a catylitic converter.  BMW did do their homework.  I also know from swapping exhaust systems on my own engine, that a retune is necessary. You should have a semi-optimal tune for each exhaust sytem, then dyno each on individually.

On higher output S14s,  I also know that the stock exhaust system is a restriction, and I also am pretty sure the single pipe exhaust setups are as well, atleast the ones up to 3" diameter, not a large restriction, but also not as good as a dual 60 mm pipe setup in the midrange and topend area.  Going with larger pipes though tends to increase the level of a secondary resonance down around 2500-2800 rpm and can cause a torque dip around 3000-3500 rpm. So there are trade offs here.  A dual 50 mm or dual 55 mm pipe might be better here.  I dont think any of this makes a difference though until youre running around 280+ hp.  In this arena, and given we usually have power band in the 5000-8000 or 6000-9000 rpm area, then the headers above could paint an entirely different picture. We wont know unless we just try it out, they look promising to me.

I dont know what the merges are going to do. I think that they will approximately do what a 4-1 header will do, because the merge is in the same general location.  It might make the header a bit peakier and biased toward maximum power in the powerband, this makes it make power in a narrower band though. This is just pure speculation on my part though. That is mostly how a 4-1 header behaves vs. a 4-2 header. Ive not scene any dyno plots and I may be quite wrong.

John

Well, it looks like the car is being tuned either today or early next week, so hopefully we should have 'something' interesting that you can look at.

Nick @ TBMW wrote: Well, it looks like the car is being tuned either today or early next week, so hopefully we should have 'something' interesting that you can look at.

Has this happened yet?

Also as asked earlier is the car being tuned on the 'old' exhaust first and then 'retuned' on the new or are they just going for the latter to get 'maximum' gains..

I would be interested but with the lack of answers to some vital questions itmakes me wonder if my engine will actually benefit from this upgrade.

karl

Nick @ TBMW wrote: It was tuned on the new manifold (or do you mean exhaust?) which netted 175whp with the new cams in, so I'm afraid I can't give you a comparison of the standard and new item. Only way to really do it properly would be to get all four BMW manifolds and the BTB one and rolling road/tune for each. Obviously you're looking at a huge amount of hours and a huge amount of cost involved in such a task!

So we have no idea what extra power was gained by fitting this new manifold and what was gained by fitting the new cams.

Yes the project will take alot of hours and lots of money but for a logical well thought out article in a magazine that was writing about cheap upgrades then gains from each component in the build would have been useful.

It is quite possible the manifold is a complete waste of money.

Just my thoughts since I have just gone through a major engine rebuild but had it all planned out for me by John-M3.

Karl

When is this going to take place?..

Whos incharge of the GB, As i would like to ask a few things, I may be intrested as well

Many Thanks

Evo

[/QUOTE]
And to be honest, 175 rwhp with all this mods do not impress me either. So how cheap are cheap upgrades if they don't upgrade? [/QUOTE]

I was getting near 180rwhp on my stock engine (195bhp and 220,000kms) and DTA engine management.

I would be interested in the exhaust but there are to many unanswered questions.

This test by TBMW is a waste of time  - get one over to John-M3 let him test it and report.  The Group buy would then go ahead.

I for definate would buy one if John recomends.

Karl