Trigger wheels for Aftermarket ECU/EMS
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Category: Technical & Model Specific Forums
Forum Name: BMW ///M Power
Forum Discription: Ask your BMW M Power Technical Questions here (M1, M2 hybrids, M3, M5 & M6)
URL: http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=28476
Printed Date: 02-May-2024 at 07:43
Topic: Trigger wheels for Aftermarket ECU/EMS
Posted By: jpboost
Subject: Trigger wheels for Aftermarket ECU/EMS
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 04:07
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I'm toying with the idea of fitting aftermarket engine management to my E30 m3.
I know a lot of people go for the MAXX Alpha N, but I'd prefer to be able to map ignition too. Especially as total cost shouldn't be all that different.
I won't be able to afford Motec, so it's likley I'll be running OMEX or Emerald. I've still got a fair bit of research to do, but I'm thinking of this as a project for later in the year certainly not for the next few months.
Shortly (in the next month or so) I've got to take my engine out to do some bodywork. While the engine is out, I thought I'd fit the crank trigger wheel that I'd need to run my EMS. For any of those who are running some sort of EMS, what wheel did you use? I'm pretty sure the motec runs on the std sensors, but I don't think the ones I'm talking about do. I know most EMS will run using any of the std wheels (36-1 , 60-2 etc) but I was just tyring to see what others have done.
Who else out there is running aftermarket EMS?
Anyone got a spare crank pulley they want to sell so I can get prepared before taking the car off the road?
Cheers
John |
Replies:
Posted By: BMG M3
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 04:29
Its a shameless plug, but there is a crank pulley on eBay right now 
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Posted By: jpboost
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 04:52
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I had noticed that Brian, You may well gain a bidder :) |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 05:07
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MOTEC doesn't use BMW trigger wheel BTW.
I would go for EMERAD. You can't beat the price they are asking for the mapping. No offence, but are you able to map iginition? And all the other stuff? (cold enrichment, accel enrich, temp compensation blablabla) Maybe worth talking to 215DMX. He's done a lot of research for his MOTEC. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: Karlp
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 05:12
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I have done this for my DTA engine management system. 36 -1 wheel with sensor mounted below water pump. The most difficult thing to do was to mount the wheel on the pulley - in that the first time I did it the mounting bolts (4mm) sheared after one track day. I was told that the inertia forces can do this. It is now mounted using a 10mm by 6mm steel ring that is welded to the trigger wheel and then radially secured to the crank pulley using four 6mm allen key bolts. This setup is fine. Make sure you incorporated some sort of adjustment for the accurate alignment of the sensor. You may be told that you can adjust for misalignement of the sensor in the software BUT if done correctly you wil be able to use another DTA or Emerald ECU by just plugging it in rather than resetting parameters. My engine is out at present being rebuilt so I can take pics very easily at any angle. THIS WILL NEED MAPPING BY SOMEONE TO GET THE BEST OUT OF IT and for DTA expect about £450.
Karl |
Posted By: jpboost
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 05:21
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Karl, I'd be very interested to see some pics of the trigger wheel/sensor mounting. With the adjustmetn in the software, I'd not thought too much about the actual positioning... but I will now. Did you use a DTA wheel? Have you mounted the wheel on the inside or outside of the pulley? Uwe, No offence taken. I'd like to think I'm capable, but I suppose I'll just have to find out. I also know a couple of people who have done a fair amount of mapping before, so I can call on them if needed. I also have another project car that will be getting a mappable ECU (ign only on a turbo mini) so it's something I have to get to grips with anyway. I also live just round the corner from 215DMX, so if this project goes ahead, I'm sure I'll drag him to the pub to discuss load sites etc...(I'm sure he'll be ever so glad to read this!
John
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)Posted By: Karlp
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 05:37
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I did get the wheel from DTA - but it is no different than anything else (plenty on ebay) just more expensive. It is mounted on the inside of the hub. The flange is reduced and the mounting ring 'turned' to fit.
Karl |
Posted By: stevesingo
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 05:37
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John, I run motec and it uses a 36-1 trigger mounted on the pully. It mounts with three M6 bolts and is easy enough to mount. http://www.trigger-wheels.com/ - Triggers will have somthing suitable. If you are going to run sequential injection then you will nee a camshaft sensor also. Gustave and others on S14.net have done a lot of work on this and I think someone has some spare kits to facilitate this also. If you are going the sequentioal route then you will need to do some work on your wiring loom as the injrctors are wired in pairs as stock. Whilst your at it you might as well go for distributoless ingnition too. Oh the fun to be had. Steve |
Posted By: jpboost
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 05:59
Looks like I'll be digging the lathe out then I'll PM you my email for some photos if that's ok.. Thanks
Steve, Dizzy less is something I will definitely be doing. Sequential may be out of my budget... *goes off to start searching fro more details on sequential injection*
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Karlp wrote:
.Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 06:14
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Loosing the dizzy is probably one of biggest benefits of an aftermarket ECU.
But I am not sure if it's worth the effort for sequential injection. We're talking of improvements behind the comma IMHO. But if you're like to fiddle around with things it's worth it  ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: stevesingo
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 06:18
IF your doint the work to put the cam trigger in, you might as well double up the injector wiring and go the whole hog. Already got a spare loom to look in to it 
Steve |
Posted By: Karlp
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 06:20
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I thought about sequential ignition but - not worth it. There seems to be two schools of thought. 1. Sequential - inject a specific amount but it has to vapourize efficently and get into the combustion chamber quickly. 2. Batch injection - where the injection into the 'unused' cylinders gets vapourised and is ready for the 'proper' injection.
Not sure which is best but for sequential need cam sensor, more loom. Personally I do not think it is worth the extra effort. Karl |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 06:28
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John, you can use all sorts of trigger wheels/ sensors off other vehicles,
what comes off a Granada is a well used option. You can buy a crank pully pre-drilled and with a trigger wheel off Powerstation as well as the sensor bracket, I doubt that would be too much. The wheel is an off the shelf item. You could then use this to plug into any system. Easy tried and tested. It all depends how much 'effort' you want to put into building a loom to go with it. Personally as you know, unless you are going for outright race spec engine/ track day car with seqential injection, COP etc, I believe the MaXX kit is better as it uses all the std parameters, sensors etc. It isn't too much trouble to get a decent ignition map sorted and burned onto the chip. All of which makes better sence on a road car. As Uwe can testfy with the MaXX you can carry just a few parts in the boot to convert back to standard on the side of the road in very little time if something goes wrong. Things like that make sence to me on a road car. Going to COP, is quite involved. Only VAC in the states (as far as I know) produces any off the shelf parts to use a ref/ sync sensor (E34 M5 style) Obviously you can use a ignition expander sytem with seperate coils, but you still need a sync sensor. Otherwise you will need to have parts CNC machined to fit your needs. Again though, I don't think you will see any noticable benefit in performance for the trouble and outlay. Same goes for sequntaial. Better off spending the money on decent head work, cams, pistons........! Why not get you head ported while the engine is out, keep the std cams for now and go for a Maxx. Toby did this and he's got 240hp.... Unless you want to make me an offer for mine......lots of whisles and bells to play with ;-) |
Posted By: stevesingo
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 06:29
Motec 36-1 trigger
Steve |
Posted By: jpboost
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 06:53
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I agree that sequential and COP are probably far too much for what I need. and too expensive.
It just seems sensible to spend a little more to get a system that can do the ignition as well, rather than just the fuel. Things like losing the dizzy are a bonus.
The engine loom on my car is a also a bit of a worry, the amount of rodent damage (don't laugh) is an unknown entity, so running new loom for the new ecu seems like quite a sensible idea.
I can see the argument behind such a simple converion like the MAXX, but I'm not sure it does everything I want. ( I do realise that it probably is an easier way to what I 'need' though)
Cheers for the offer Dave, I'll make some enquiries and see how expensive the other options are. Then we can discuss over that pint.
 |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 06:58
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Be aware John, getting rid of the dizzy, and builing a new loom for all the
other elements invloves some work and won't be cheap even if the ECU unit itself looks like a good deal. Why exactly do you 'need' to go 'dizzy-less' ? |
Posted By: jpboost
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 07:17
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I think it probably stems from it being the recommended thing to do for so many other engines. Whenever looking at properly tuning engines, I've always been led to belive that dizzys (and the timing scatter they introduce) were best avoided. It's not a goal I'd specifically chase on it's own, but if I was spending money on some sort of management, it's something i'd certainly try to include... |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 07:36
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John, still uses a dizzy on his 330hp Group A engine with std ignition
parts... I think the std ignition on the e30 M3 is pretty good out of the box. Alot of the other cars/ engines, you could be refering to most likely don't start out with such an advanced ecu which has quite good ignition drivers built in. |
Posted By: Karlp
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 08:04
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Regarding costs -for a DTA system this is what I spent. DTA 599 Loom 299 Ignition coil (to go distributorless ) £10 from ebay 50 normally Trigger wheel 40 (in hindsight too expensive) Injectors 250 (depends on impedence needed by ECU) Sensors 60 (need crank trigger and air temp) TPS - cannot remember but about 30 Mapping 450 all + VAT where applicable. Karl |
Posted By: jpboost
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 08:06
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point taken. Also the last one I was playing with was highly strung forced induction, so reliable accurate ignition was critical to avoid meltdown! |
Posted By: Karlp
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 08:11
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IF I was doing all this for a road car I would probably go the MAXX route - because. 1. If anything goes wrong then easy to convert back at the road side. 2. Can easily take off if selling the car. 3. Lots of info and help off other BMW owners.
My car is a track/race car and DTA and other parties are not very helpful unless spending £££. The DTA forum is cr*p so I had no help from them.
Karl |
Posted By: jpboost
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 08:20
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karl, no 3. is the main reason I'd have for going the MAXX route. not just from other owners but from MAXX themselves. I know a couple of people runnign emerald, (and Dave walker is very helpful).. there's not as much OMEX info out there as I'd like though. John |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 08:27
Can only second that ! I was thinking for a long time about DTA, LENZ, EMERALD etc etc. But driving the car on the road and all over Europe, I didn't fancy to rely on samll batch production parts only available from the manufacturer. The MAXX kit proved it's reliability many times and the support is second to none. And if you're really paranoid, just keep the AFM and the throttle switch in the boot. (requires some slight modifications of how you wire the MAXX in to make the swap quicker. Even the throttle poti can be used). Getting a full standalone engine management system up and running requires a little bit more than average DIY skills IMHO. And if you haven't got the right support (mates or tuners) you can get lost quite quickly. I am more than happy with the MAXX AN. It hasn't let me down for once and the car starts every time. Even with an almost flat battery. BTW MAXX is now running each of his ECU in the car for two weeks before he ships them to customers. How's that for quality control  ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: Karlp
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 09:02
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I presume MAXX is from John (Munich Germany) - that alone in my opinion is well worth getting it. My other dealings with him on engine issues is quick, informative and professional and above all a very trustworthy person.
Karl |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 10:41
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MAXX is MAXX, but John is working very close with Martin (who is MAXX ) covering the english speaking market. But Martin speaks quite good english as well. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: jpboost
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 11:25
that's quite a list! The arguments for going for the MAXX seem to be almost overwhelming! the £450 mapping, how long was that in time? Cheers, |
Posted By: Karlp
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 11:32
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The £450 was about 6 - 8 hours mapping. This was quoted beforehand and he also welded in a Lambda probe bung and redid my TPS bracket. (all that was free!!). It is possible to use the old injectors but (like Emerald) requires a resistor to be placed in the earth line (so I just got new injectors as I wanted reliability). karl |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 11:42
| John, call round i have a couple of books you might want to read. |
Posted By: jpboost
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 11:48
Where did you have yours done?
sounds good. I'll give you a bell later. |
Posted By: Karlp
Date Posted: 20-March-2006 at 11:57
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I had mine done by lester Owen but the top guy for mapping DTA is Steve Greenauld in Essex. this is probably where i wil go next time Karl |