Is O2 sensor needed with Alpha N
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Category: Technical & Model Specific Forums
Forum Name: BMW ///M Power
Forum Discription: Ask your BMW M Power Technical Questions here (M1, M2 hybrids, M3, M5 & M6)
URL: http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=22436
Printed Date: 03-May-2024 at 05:24
Topic: Is O2 sensor needed with Alpha N
Posted By: jonny 320is
Subject: Is O2 sensor needed with Alpha N
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 09:21
|
I am presently fitting Maxx Alpha N plus CF airbox to my 320is. being a 320is it has no lamda control (no Cats) Is this going to be a problem when setting the Alpha N up? |
Replies:
Posted By: Demlotcrew
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 10:09
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Its very cheap to have one fitted, i would post this question on S14.net I am sure you need one! But thats a cool mod your doing there! I hope to be doing the same shortly. Andrew ------------- 
email: Andrew AT E30zone.co.uk | 323is | S14 ™ |
Posted By: Italian M3
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 10:16
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Glad you posted I need this info also!!
Are you going with different cams? I will be interested to see what type of gains in BHP and Torque are achieved. Look forward to hearing the results. P.S. any other photos of your car? Luke ------------- Still fast at 2Ltrs!! Undercover M3!! |
Posted By: Adrian M3 90
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 10:18
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very nice mod, i'm gathering information to do the same. Where have you purchased you C/F Airbox and Alpha N from? I too have taken the cats from my car, so i'm very interested in what info you find. ------------- M3 Garage Queen, but i do use it really! |
Posted By: jonny 320is
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 10:20
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Cams are on the list but not just yet, the Alpha N and airbox cost enough! Looking forward to seeing the results myself! Got some more pics, go here: http://photobucket.com/albums/v651/JONNYS/ - http://photobucket.com/albums/v651/JONNYS/click on 320is. |
Posted By: jonny 320is
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 10:26
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Bought it from http://www.e30shop.de - www.e30shop.deExcellent service and very quick delivery, would recommend them any day. I am in the process of asking this on s14.net so we shall see! According the manual you can do it but everyone i speak to say they use the 02 to tune it, getting confused!!!! |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 11:24
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There is no way you can do any tuning without WBo2.
Wether YOU need it depends on who will tune it for you, if you get it done on a rolling road, you can get away without one being fitted permently. But be aware any tuning done with an exhaust probe will not be spot on, so you dicing a little with AFR ratio's. Also without one how do you know what the engine is doing??????? So the answer really is yes you do need one. |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 14:08
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First you need to be aware of the difference between NARROW band Lambda probe (fitted from factory to run your cat's) and WIDE band Lambda probe (needed to tune you Alpha-N properly).
The narrow band probe is only able to measure around Lambda 1 (AFR 14.7:1) which is fine to keep your mixture correct for the cats. To tune ANY engine management properly you need to have a WIDE band Lambda unit whic is able to measure from very rich to very lean. As 215DMX has already said, it's up to you if you go somewhere and get it tuned in OR if you want to keep an eye on how things are and do some tuning/adjusting yourself. If you ask me I would strongly recommend to get your own Wideband Lambda system regardless if you or someone else is tuning it. Alpha-N doesn't know when your engine start's wearing and will alway use the values given in the tables. If the condition of your engine changes you will need to adjust accordingly. Without WBO2 it's a shot in the dark. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: Adrian M3 90
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 15:17
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Which size trumpets did you go for 15 or 17? Do S14.de supply the O2 sensor? I would have thought the sensor would come with the kit? How much was the kit after the currency change? ------------- M3 Garage Queen, but i do use it really! |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 15:28
Why should the sensor come with the kit??? It's either supplied with the car (narrowband) or standalone (wideband). ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Adrian M3 90 wrote:Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 15:37
Don't get confused with what a Alpha N 'kit' is. This is a system that does away with the AFM, that's all. Wether it be MaXX, Motec, Emerald, etc. You still need another 'system' to tune with, and there are a number of different options here as well. Techedge, Innovate etc. All they do is provide a signal to your chosen compter, just the same as a tempature sensor would i.e. it gives the computer information which it can then act on to make sure your engine is running at it's optimum. |
Posted By: Adrian M3 90
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 15:47
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So, if i brought a kit say from S14, like there optoin 1 or 2 kit what else do i need for my 1990 M3 to get it running and rolling road tuned? ------------- M3 Garage Queen, but i do use it really! |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 16:19
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if you go and get it rolling road tuned from a proper tuner you won't need anything else, just the Alpha-N kit.
But it might be a wise move to invest in your very own tuning equipment. Unless you are not familiar with engine tuning, than the money is better spent at the right dyno place. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: Adrian M3 90
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 16:30
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Uwe, i used to live 20 mins away from you and would have asked you for help but i'm living up North now. After reading some info and reading what was on the forum, i was getting worried that i needed more than the option 1 or 2 kit from s14 etc. So i am right then in thinking all i needed was the Alphan -N - Kit and the C/F Airbox and when fitted off to get it tuned on a rolling road. When iv'e fitted it will it ok to be running it with it's base program? Infact does it come with a base program? ------------- M3 Garage Queen, but i do use it really! |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 16:38
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yes it come with a base map which will get the car started and running.
But you CAN'T drive with this map for a longer period of time or full throttle. It will get you to the Dyno. If you have a stock narrowband sensor fitted you can get some good resultas for small to half trhottle openings and the Lambda control of the ECU ON. This will get you save to the Dyno. But everything above half throttle and 4000-5000 rpm should be avoided. How much do you know about AFR's and mixture? ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: Italian M3
Date Posted: 26-September-2005 at 18:04
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Uwe is there some good info to read up on before doing this mod. I have
no experiance in tuning of motors, but I am very technically minded and will be getting myself the wideband lambda and a laptop to use, aswell as the Alpha-n. One thing that pops into my mind at the moment is, I have read about people that have worried about fuel pressure saying that their injectors are running at 90-100% while at full rpm's and have gone with a higher pressure fuel pump, as the 320is only has the intank fuel pump what options would their be to these problems? Any links would be helpful. Luke ------------- Still fast at 2Ltrs!! Undercover M3!! |
Posted By: jonny 320is
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 03:59
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So, i need a WB02 sensor, any suggestions on where to get one, best one to buy, how much? who in the UK can setup Alpha N? Was thinking of taking it to nigel at mosley but he doesn't do it himself, he take sit somewhere else. |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 04:25
you won't need a different fuel pump. You need an different FPR = fuel pressure regulator. Little round thing which is located at the end of your fuel rail (actually at the front of the engine :-) 215DMX has a comprehensive list of different FPR's from BOSCH ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 04:27
you won't NEED a WBO2 kit if you get it setup from someone on the rolling road. And it's not just the sensor, you need a WBO2 unit. The sensor can't be used on it's own like the narrow band sensor. (heating is more complex). ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: Adrian M3 90
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 04:54
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Uwe, all i have fitted is the stock item, i have a 1990 M3 but i have removed the cats but left the stock Lambda fitted near the down pipe. I don't really know that much about AFR's and mixture set up , thats why i was going to get it on rolling road. But i do come from an electrical enginneering back ground so used to programing etc. Is there any info on setting it up or do people keep so its a dark art? ------------- M3 Garage Queen, but i do use it really! |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 05:11
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it's not really a dark art. You just need to know how an engine works. It's not just playing a little bit with the software and setting AFR's to a desired value.
You NEED some knowledge how an engine behaves and most certanly you need to understand what happens when you change "this and that". If you have never fiddled around with a carb and spark plug colours, I would recommend to get it done from a professional. You can easily blow you engine in one afternoon if you ignore the "messages" from you engine, wbo2 kit. There is a lot of reading on S14.net if you search for Alpha-N or MAXX. I am willing to show how mine is set up if we can agree on a location and date. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: lancelotII
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 05:34
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A slightly diverse question for those in the know, re the stock Narrow band sensor. In a nutshell, how does it equate to the mapping on your chip. (we are talking stock afm setup, but re-mapped). I know for a fact that mine is disconnected and that the car no longer has cats, so if it were connected, at what point is the engine using the info from the O2 sensor and where does the map come in. If the O2 sensor is determining the fuelling, I guess there is a cut off point (rpm) where it stops.
Roops |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 06:57
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The lambda control works in some sort of "window" cycling up and down. So even if your value on the map isn't spot on, the Lambda is able to pull it to AFR14.7 as long the map value is in this window. As soon you hit the pedal to the metal, the Lambda control is OFF.
There is a switch point in your throttle switch. If you connect a multimeter to the Throttle switch you can measure it (approx 80% throttle). Only the idle contact makes a "click". The narrowband sensor is actually NOT able to precisely measure 14.7 AFR. The ECU does richen up till the sensor reads out of the Lambda 1, than immediately leans out till the sensor reads out of Lambda 1. This cyling up and down is than somewhere around Lambda 1 (very simple explained, hope it makes sense). In fact your car will run a little leaner on part throttle (depending on how it's mapped), than with Lambda control in place. What are you trying to achive Roops? I have a narrowband gauge fitted (very cheap kit, about a tenner) which is good enough to give you an idea what is happening if your map is out on part throttle. At least it shows you that your "trouble" area is lean or rich. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: jonny 320is
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 07:18
| So what WBO2 kit do people recommend and how much are they? |
Posted By: chacha
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 07:28
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It Sounds like this is what you need:
Innovate Motorsports XD-1 WideBand Lambda Gauge Kit is probably the best on the market at the moment This kit enables precise measurement of exhaust air/fuel ratio (AFR). The meter’s digital signal processing technology provides data on exactly how rich or lean an engine is running at any load. You can display output on the gauge and also feed third-party Engine Management system or Laptop etc. Let me know if you are interested as I can get a significant discount on this product. |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 07:38
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I know one person for sure who needs one very soon.
Do you have a price? ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: lancelotII
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 08:09
Perfect Uwe. I am sure my car is running rich pretty much through the rev range. It's got that kind of fluffly throttle response from idle when it stutters and then goes, whereas if you bring the throttle in smoothly it's fine. I am just trying to figure where to start looking, I haven't even pulled the plugs yet, which I should do and I am suspecting that the temp sensor may be worth changing. I just want to understand what controls the mixture thereby trying to make sensible decisions on the best course of action. I could just give it to somebody, but I wan't to have a fiddle myself. Roops |
Posted By: jonny 320is
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 08:36
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chacha, I'm very interested in this kit, let me know how much, that would be great. |
Posted By: chacha
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 09:18
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Discounted price for XD-1 Kit is £259.00 Including VAT. Next Day UK Delivery is £9.00.
Feel free contact me if you have any questions. |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 09:35
is that together with the LC1 ? Fully standalone including sensor, cable etc? ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: chacha
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 09:42
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Yes, This is what's in the box:
Thanks! |
Posted By: jonny 320is
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 09:53
| sounds good to me, where do i sign? |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 10:46
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Hi there Vano, mine is up and running, though I had
a little trouble in syncing it with the Motec due to a ground difference, I will have a comparison check soon to double check I'm seeing a true value. I think it is slightly biased. i.e it is showing a Lambda leaner than the engine is actually running, not y much though. Uwe, I believe the STD Lambda sensor (afm fitted etc) also cuts outs out above 4000 rpm as well as above 80% throttle. Dave |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 11:13
Nothing to do with revs. Throttle switch is the trigger. You won't do high revs on low throttle anyway. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: chacha
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 11:53
|
Hi Dave, |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 13:01
Yeah, all done 'by the book', I put in new plugs as well and did some motorway runs but even when showing 0.98 - 1.00 Lambda the plug edges were still very 'sooty' for that reading. Dave |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 13:09
Sooty edges are caused by crusing along. Not enough heat 
0.98 - 1.00 is still "rich" (sort off). You need to run 15 and slightly above to "clean" your exhaust. Or put your foot down. This will clean your plugs. For sure  ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 13:28
|
Oh, I know what your saying Uwe, it's just until I can
100% trust the gauge and it's input into the Motec, i'm reluctant to run 15's, I've got close between 3500-4000 rpm at cruising throttle, at 1.01 Lambda. I'm also not using Lambda control until I have this sorted either. From 1000rpm - 4000rpm, load sites 5%-80% are between 1.00 Lambda at the lower %'s to 0.97 towards 80%. Greater than 80% is +/- 0.94 Above 4000rpm goes up to 0.87 at 100% but i haven't been adjusting this and just left as Powerstation did it. Their target Lambda is very rich in the mid %'s and too lean >80% This is the only area i adjusted. BTW I find it far easier to work in Lambda rather than AFR as the reading has less fluctation. |
Posted By: Demlotcrew
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 15:55
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Hi Chacha i will be needing one of these soon, will this offer still be around? Thanks Andrew -------------
email: Andrew AT E30zone.co.uk | 323is | S14 ™ |
Posted By: chacha
Date Posted: 27-September-2005 at 16:35
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Yes, I should be able to provide it at discounted price for the forseable future. Just drop me a message when you decide to go for it. |
Posted By: texas2201
Date Posted: 17-October-2005 at 16:57
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hi chacha
would be interested in one of these kits - do you take credit cards or paypal?
Martin
------------- Martin - www.iconicmotorcars.co.uk E30 M3 now sold :-(/Lotus Elan SE Turbo/Lotus Excel SE/Lotus Excel SA/Audi A8 - now Tow Barge - Quattro 4.2 |
Posted By: chacha
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 02:53
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Hi Martin, |
Posted By: Eamo
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 07:03
Uwe - sorry if this sounds a stupid question - why do you not neeed a WB02 kit if you get it setup from someone with a rolling road? ------------- |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 07:47
Because most likely they will have one or map the car in a way they used to map before WBO was available. Once your map is tuned you don't really NEED the WBO. It's just a double safety to keep an eye on your engine and looks damn important when showing off your car 
Any highly tuned (read = expensive) engine should be monitored with a WBO just to make sure you don't blow it after spending all that money becuase of a popped off hose or something similar simple. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: John-M3
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 09:29
|
I can also recommend the techedge WBO2 setup, I have had a 2A0
and now a 2B0 kit, these are good for fixed installations. The 2CO is
pretty small and good for quick tuning where the unit is removed again
later. The 2BO has several logging inputs, analog and digital output
and also more memory over the 2AO. The units can be flashed by the user
(e.g. software upgrades). The common sensor are 6066 or 7057 type
(software selectable). http://wbo2.com/2b0/default.htm The alpha N now has a pre-wired connector for use with the TE units, but you can adapt for the innovate as well. The innovate looks like a nice little setup, although I do not like that the electronics driving the lambda sensor are integrated into the cable. The housing is sealed shut. If something goes wrong you will need to buy new electronic unit+cable. It is conceivable that something could go wrong. e.g. I burned my lambda sensor cable on the exhaust header once. That is not a big deal if you can just swap the cable out. On fixed installations, you will likely want to install in the X-pipe crossover and then route the cable forward toward the engine compartment and then come into the passenger side behind the glove box (next to where the DME sits). When you can take all the cable/connectors apart, this makes feeding thru the front engine wall grommets easier. I have a 1.3m lambda cable which is sufficient to run from X pipe to the glove box area. On any type of Alpha N setup, I would HIGHLY recommend to run a FIXED WBO2 installation. Not because the AN tuning is not consistent -- it is. It just makes sense given how cheap the WBO guages have become. There is no need to visit a dyno for fuel tuning if you have a WBO2, so the guage pays for itself in just one tuning session. I usually need about 2 hours to get most of the fuel map tuned. Then perhaps another 1-2 hours fine tuning. But I work on all parts of the map not just the commonly used areas. So you can give it full throttle at 1500 rpms in 5th gear and it shouldnt bog down on a stock engine. The guage is helpful when diagnosing problems. An ignition miss on just 1 cylinder will show up on the guage despite it measuring average of 4 cylinders. Fuel fouled plugs causing ignition misses will show up. If your coolant temp sensor goes out...you will see it, if you fuel pressure drops...you will see it. etc. etc. my favorite idiot guages are: water temperature, oil temperature, oil pressure, fuel pressure and AFR/lambda. We all know that the first 3 are particularly important on a track, the last 2 are very important on alpha N setups, particularly when they are run in open loop. BTW, motronic shuts off NB lambda control 4800ish rpm and the alpha N will turn its internal NB lambda control off at 5000 rpm. The load cutoff is 80% on motronic, on the alpha N it is adjustable (I have mine set at 70%, but the default is over 90%! People running off of NBsim might want to know that. a very modified engine may not cope as well with lambda control running at 90% load). The AN settings specific to lambda control are on the O2 control page. Also the timers for when lambda control is enaged after a cold start. If you dont run AN control but instead motronic O2 control, then this will not affect you. John ------------- http://board.s14power.com - s14power.com |
Posted By: Eamo
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 09:42
|
John
You are very knowledgable on this subject along with Uwe and one or 2 others. I know I have emailed you in the past in relation to buying Alpha N. I have to say Im very reluctant to buy as Im in Ireland and I can safely say there is nobody here I would have confidence in installing the kit. There are 1 or 2 good tuners but they wouldn't have any expierience with e30 m3's because these cars are rare here and tuning them here isn't done. Who would you recommend as a one stop shop where I could buy the all the kit and get it installed? I dont mind having to travel so thats not a factor for me! ------------- |
Posted By: John-M3
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 10:00
|
the only shop that has dealt directly with was Bexleys, his name was
Nigel. I think they did Martin (Sport evo), Tom Houlbt, and 2-3 others. the wiring job is not that hard, 8 or so on the ECU connector, 4 on the AFM connector. The finicky part is crimping in new splices at the ECU connector. Having a crimp tool is helpful. The process is explained in the documentation (with pictures). Have you had a look at that? If it is not explained well let me know. If you can get it wired in, I could help you tune it at the Ring. There are some guys in england that did road tuning (Collin, Toby, and Uwe I believe). The base maps that come with it are on the rich side and are safe. what is the closest airport to your house? John ------------- http://board.s14power.com - s14power.com |
Posted By: Maxxum
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 10:03
|
Eamo, I am also thinking of going down the CF airbox, AN route, have been doing a bit of research on s14.net and installation doesnt look like too big a job to me, AN comes with a basemap to get you going and any decent rolling road operator should get it working fine from there, with a wb02 you could do most tuning yourself I believe. ------------- 86 E30 M3 |
Posted By: jonny 320is
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 10:10
|
I have just finnished installing the AN and CF airbox along with the innovate WBO2 kit. there all good bits of kit with good clear instructions, had no problems. Its pretty straight forward to install as long as you have a general knowlegde of how a car works. Just waiting for the bung to be welded to the exhaust manifold (didn't fit well on the x-pipe, dont know whether thats a 320is thing or not) the i'm off for a long drive tuning! |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 10:20
|
@John-M3,
just a reminder about tuning on the road. There is a 70mph speed limit in the UK 
Sometimes it can be a bit difficult to find a "non public" road.
WOT is "fairly" easy to be set up. It's the mid and low throttle openings where you need a little bit of experience. Just something to mention which I think is very important as well. Make sure all your breather hoses and rubbber inlet blocks are in good condition and air tight. Also to be kept in mind is the Data Logger facility included in the MAXX control software. Quite handy piece of kit. No extra wires needed. Just feed the WBOs into the MAXX loom and press the record button. If you are a bit handy with EXCEL you can get some graphs up quite quickly. Or just read the txt file at the side of the road and adjust accordingly. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 10:26
one I prepared earlier....
 ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: jonny 320is
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 10:28
|
i live next to an old WWWII airfield thats partially converted to an industrial estate, runways still exist so i shall use that for some of the tuning and WOT. I have replaced all hoses and rubber inlet blocks as well as new clips while its been off the road so hopefully i shouldn't have any problems there. I'm not rushing this, it is my second car (toy!). Drive a vectra every day |
Posted By: 215m3
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 10:28
Sounds like you could get a visit from John.. As John has said the wiring is fairly straight forward and the airbox is a bit more invovled. I would be more than happy to fit it all for you and you could then pop over to gerry at dastek to get it mapped on his rollers. It would take less than a day to fit it all. I also found the base map very rich. Colin, Adrian and myself have had our cars mapped by him and extremely happy with the improvements. ------------- Toby http://www.bmminiparts.com - New Genuine BMW & Mini OEM parts - www.bmminiparts.com 1987 E30 M3 with turbo being added |
Posted By: Eamo
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 10:35
Dublin! ------------- |
Posted By: Eamo
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 10:37
I also need a pipe to replace the AFM. What/where did you guys get yours? ------------- |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 13:14
|
"I also need a pipe to replace the AFM. What/where
did you guys get yours?" B&Q, funily enough. |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 13:46
|
I had to go to a specialist plumber mercant. B&Q didn't have 80mm drain pipe ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: John-M3
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 14:07
|
------------- http://board.s14power.com - s14power.com |
Posted By: John-M3
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 14:11
|
Here are some pictures of data log visualization. I used it to solve somebodies problem remote, but dont ask me anymore what exactly it was :) BTW, it seem particularly difficult to get pictures to post in vertical format. am I doing something wrong? also sometimes I lose the "cursor" so then I cant edit. John
------------- http://board.s14power.com - s14power.com |
Posted By: John-M3
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 14:17
|
on s14net there is a guy "rongineer" making up a special airfilter box with large pipe to replace the AFM. i havent seen it myself, but you might be able to get some pictures/info from him. John
------------- http://board.s14power.com - s14power.com |
Posted By: stevesingo
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 15:48
|
Mines just arrived and will be fitted tomorrow, so I can post some pics if you like. A bit pricey after postage though!
Steve
|
Posted By: Eamo
Date Posted: 18-October-2005 at 16:32
|
steve
would love to see the pix thanks ------------- |
Posted By: Maxxum
Date Posted: 20-October-2005 at 15:49
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The innovative wbo2 sensor does not have rpm logging,is this needed with the Alpha N setup. ------------- 86 E30 M3 |
Posted By: stevesingo
Date Posted: 20-October-2005 at 16:40
|
Eamo,
I take it youv'e seen this http://www.bmwcarclubforum.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=23354&PN=1 - Airbox Steve |
Posted By: John-M3
Date Posted: 20-October-2005 at 17:58
|
you dont really need the WBO to do ANY logging. The AN will log all you need to know. TPS, RPM, AFR, LMOUT, etc. did you see the pictures I posted in the other AN thread? that was from an AN log file. John
------------- http://board.s14power.com - s14power.com |
Posted By: Maxxum
Date Posted: 21-October-2005 at 04:32
|
Thanks John, how does the AN log the AFR ------------- 86 E30 M3 |
Posted By: Eamo
Date Posted: 21-October-2005 at 04:38
i did boss. thanks for that. ------------- |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 21-October-2005 at 04:45
The Alpha-N has an input where you feed the INNOVATE WBO signal in. Dead easy to do. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: Maxxum
Date Posted: 21-October-2005 at 04:59
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Now I see Uwe, thanks, looks like the innovative unit wil cover everything then. ------------- 86 E30 M3 |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 21-October-2005 at 05:34
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I have just installed one last weekend in Sunny's car. Good piece of kit. But read the instructions BEFORE you connect everything. There is an order of how to connect everything at first time use.
If you hook it up with the MAXX you can use power and ground from the MAXX's X3 plug. Make sure you use the correct grounds (chassis and signal). Where are you going to mount the sensor? There will be a new Software release of the MAXX Alpha-n supporting the INNOVATE WBO's Another thing you might want to do is to set the sensitivity of the INNOVATE display a little lower (in the INNOVATE software). Otherwise the number will change very fast. ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: John-M3
Date Posted: 21-October-2005 at 07:07
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here is how the WBOs are connected to the AN: john.gmstech.de/docs/an-te.pdf its all pretty simple. you can evaluate logs to aide off line tuning of your map. then you just need to learn how to tune it on the street :) this is the quickest way to do it. I use a combination of left foot braking and throttle to reach all the desired load points. Works perfect and you dont kill brakes. Ask Kevin if his brakes are still ok, I helped him with his on the backroads in the Eifel on one of the Ring trips. If interested I wrote a rather long desription of how I do it on S14.net search for "tuning guide to AN" or something like that. it is not hard at all you just need to overcome the fear of messing something up :) John ------------- http://board.s14power.com - s14power.com |
Posted By: kevin
Date Posted: 21-October-2005 at 13:08
This post brought back great memories of a very interesting experience of John driving and tuning my car on the twisty roads. The brakes were fine afterwards. Cheers ------------- Kevin '04 E46 330Ci Convertible '08 E61 535d Touring (TorqueMeister Towbarge) ’95 E34 M5 ’89 E30 M3 (Cecotto) |
Posted By: M3Pilot
Date Posted: 22-October-2005 at 10:17
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I think I'm going to have to get one of these, as I could really do with it. AS long as it easy enough to link up with the Maxx.
Didn't they change the Maxx loom recently? I've had mine for a good 18 months now. Will II still be able to link the Innovate WB02 to the Maxx harness? |
Posted By: John-M3
Date Posted: 22-October-2005 at 11:37
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Martin, you probably have an older AN with the older X3 plug. That connector has only 3 pins: 5V reference, Signal and GND. you will have to connect the WBout signal of the LM1 to the "Signal" pin of the X3 connector. Do not hook up the +5V or the GND pins. you will have to get power +12V,GND externally to power the LM1. There are a few cables in the glove box that provide this. To hook up the NBsim output of the LM1 you can run a wire with special connector straight into the engine harness. The connector for this is the same as on your stock lambda sensor cable. if you need one let me know. you will not be needing NBsim unless you intend to run AN O2 control, IOW, if you continue to use stock motronic O2 control then dont worry about it. John
------------- http://board.s14power.com - s14power.com |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 22-October-2005 at 12:57
a quick reminder of what a Innovate looks like.
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Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 22-October-2005 at 15:53
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what's the red LED for???
BTW if you need some super bright LED's let me know ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: M3Pilot
Date Posted: 22-October-2005 at 16:15
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John,
Yes I am sure that there is only 3 pins on my X3 plug. The Maxx will still show the signal? I'm on the 2.16V software. I tried to use the 2.20V software but it keep crashing. I'm sure that it had an added Lambda icon on the fuel map page.? My cars runs open loop ( both blue and black conected?) As far as I know Bexleys write the same info to all parts of the chip. So if I disconnect the black ones that should bring the Motronic O2 control back on. But how will this work unless the Innovate connects into the engine harness for the Motronic to read the WB signal? How many of you run with the O2 control on be it either the Maxx or Motronic one? I never used either until I thought that something was out on the mapping side. I still can't work out why one exhuast pipe was a different colour ( one a rusty brown the other sooty black) to the other one. I'll see how it is when I get it back. |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 22-October-2005 at 16:57
Uwe, its from the LC-1, tells me about status, errors and stuff, didn't you wire one in th Sunny's car then? |
Posted By: UweM3
Date Posted: 23-October-2005 at 06:04
yes, but the display shows you all the information you need. The LED is for use without a diplay. Read the manual? ------------- E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg..... |
Posted By: 215DMX
Date Posted: 23-October-2005 at 06:18
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Your right Uwe, but if at any time the display no worky
or whatever I have a idea of whats going on. |
Posted By: John-M3
Date Posted: 23-October-2005 at 11:45
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Martin I currently use V2.20 on my AN (which is an even older version that your AN). It also has just the 3 pin X3 plug. Strange that the software crashes, perhaps you send a more specific bug report? Ask your tuner to provide the binary file. Then you can take a look at it, and also see what is different over stock. you cant run any sort of wide band lambda control -- only narrow band control. You can hook up the stock sensor to the engine harness (IOW you run both WB and NB sensors at the same time) or you can use the NBsimulated signal from your WBO setup and feed that to your engine harness (using a special connector). In either case, you have 2 options: -- blue + black closed == motronic O2 is switched off. you can switch on AN O2 control (via the AN control software) -- black or blue open (but not both) == motronic O2 switched on. in this case DO NOT turn on the AN O2 control. if you run motronic O2 control it is active for loads up to 80% and rpms up to ca. 4800 rpm. if you run AN O2 control, the cutoff rpm is ca. 5000 rpm and the load cutoff is programmable "controller poti limit" on the "oxygen control page" in the AN control software. To edit use the tab key to navigate to the text box and the cursor keys to move the value up or down. The value is a number between 0-255, the value in percent is your entered number divided by 255. e.g. to cutoff O2 control at 70% load enter a value of 178 in the text box. With a WBO derived NBsim -- the response is very quick. You can suddenly increase throttle from 20% to 70% and hold that throttle opening, the O2 controller will quickly bring the lambda value back to 1.0 (14.7 AFR). conditions where the controller might not bring the O2 value back are when the "integration limits" (default == +/- 40) are exceeded. If e.g. at the load site of 70% throttle the map value is far from the necessary value to produce lambda=1, the O2 controller will try to currect this up to +/-40 units. Once this limit is reached, the O2 controller will switch itself off and your mapped value is considered "out of bounds". The closer your open loop map (== all O2 controls switched off) is correctly tuned, the less the O2 controller has to correct, the less likely that any controller limits are reached. My open loop map is very good (== the correct lambda value under particular load and rpm conditions) because I drove that way for about 1.5 years fine tuned it. Now I run the AN O2 controller fed via the NBsim signal. John
------------- http://board.s14power.com - s14power.com |
Posted By: M3Pilot
Date Posted: 23-October-2005 at 19:44
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Hi John,
It could just be that my laptop doesn't like the 2.20v of the software as the 2.16v works fine on it. I believe that there is a 2.21v out now? Maybe I'll try that. I will run it again and let you know what the error message that I get is. It's in German so I didn't understand what it meant LOL. So from what I can make out I will need a special lead that will connect from the WB02 into the same connector that the standard NB02 goes into and the Maxx will then be able to run NBsim, and I can get one of these lead from you? It all sound good, but from what I've read you don't want to run Lambda =1 (14.7 afr) at all points in the map? I understand that one you hit the full throttle contact that it will read directly what the map says with no correction factor. But I guess it's not going to run lean with he NB sin on which is a good thing. 
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