Ok so I bought the saloon maybe the coupe is slightly better, but did a track evening last week at Snetterton and observed the following:

No turn in whatsoever.  Massive understeer on all but the fastest turns.  Result pitiful cornerspeed.

Brakes (new black diamond pads and discs all round, new fluid) faded to foot to the floor uselessness after three laps.  Result impossible to catch anything on the brakes, meaning increased cornerspeed necessary.  Er...

Any ideas?  Have I bought an overweight hairdresser's car in the mistaken belief that a bit of development was done on the racetrack?

Andy

Mmmm, interesting.

I took mine to Rockingham last week. I fitted OMP Road & Sport pads and didn't have any brake fade at all (20 minute sessions). Top speed achieved was only 110mph or so, but some big stops into hairpins were handled fine.

Turn in. For what is a heavy car I was impressed, especially in the wet. My front tyres were pretty worn before I got there, and the understeer was definitely increase towards the end of a run - nothing horrendous though.

When I went on an airfield training day I was getting a lot of understeer. Using the wheel less aggresively made a huge difference, we also learned a trail-braking technique that really gets the beast turned in.

"A bad workman always blames his tools"

Seriously though, any car is capable on track (even a Trabant), and it's up to the driver to drive it correctly. If you're braking to heavily, too late, too early then you brakes will suffer.

If your turning in while braking you may induce understeer which snaps to oversteer.

A couple of lessons and you'll find yourself getting around the track faster, more easily and with less stress on the car.

BTW I've got a 2 tonne e34 M5 on which everything (except braided brakelines) is standard and it performs quite well, so I can't see an 'lightweight' E36 M3 doing to badly.

Standard discs should be fine, just upgrade the fluid to DOT 5.1, get some Goodridge braided brakelines, and some Ferodo DS2500 pads. However, even with these 'upgrades' you will get brake fade if you drive like a muppet. Get your braking done early, at high speed, in a straight line, and lift off the brakes to balance the car before turning in. If you need to you can then feather the brakes to come off gradually to control your entry speed more acurately.

Useful stuff thanks.

Of course I'm not Sterling Moss, but I have thousands of competitive track miles under my belt on two wheels, and I know rubbish brakes when I use them.  My supermono, hell even my old RD350YPVS would stand on its front wheel every corner for dozens of laps without the slightest hint of fade.

The turn in seemed wrong too, I honed my technique during the course of the evening and was able to improve stuff through responding to the needs of the car, but the it basically felt like an overweight barge.  I defy anyone to drive that car and get the neutrality these supposed perfectly balanced cars are supposed to have.

Next time I'll reduce my front tyre pressures -- some advice I got from a proper racing driver, who accompanied me for a few laps and agreed about the problems.

Andy 

Andy, do you think the front wheel alignment is out maybe?

Still doesn't explain the chronic brake fade though, is the fluid nearing the end of its useful life?

I've not checked any geometry, but definitely will before I take to the track again.  The fluid was changed last month (supposedly :)).  I reckon braided hoses would solve the fade, especially if I put in a silicone fluid.

Having moaned about the car, I passed a Capri who was defining understeer.  I could hardly believe the amount of lock he had on through coram curve :)

Fully accept cars are different to bikes and experience will see me going quicker, but still very disappointed that it wasn't better out of the crate.

Are the E46 M3s any better?  What about E39 M5s?  They're mighty cheap now and the 'ring taxi driver can't be wrong :)

Andy

Andy, I know how you feel,

I have a background in bikes and made the move over to another "fast" car a couple of years ago and got the biggest bang for my ££ I could afford.

An Imprezza turbo, what a let down, awful brakes, loads of under steer, poor direction change at speed, wallowy, all could be put right to a degree, but at what cost?

I couldn’t believe what I was driving after all the hype id heard and read about them…I guess if you had come from a hot hatch or similar you’d be impressed

Ive never driven a road going “sports” car that had what I would call decent brakes from the factory, so I think your observations are correct from my experiences.

Even the E46 M3 CSL gets stick over its brakes and theres one lad on the BWMCC forum who seems to change his E39 M5 brakes every other week

Most “sports” production cars have failings in one or more of these areas’s as they come out of the factory.

Maybe worth investing in some aftermarket gear or braided lines/fluid change as a minimum…

I couldn’t get over the disappointment ,so settled for a “normal” car and went back to my bikes, the real deal , as they come out of the factory with very little of the compromises that a production car has

A state of the art engine/chassis/suspension/brake/tyres and up to constant abuse with no need to start throwing ££££££’s at them for fast road/track work.

I agree, the lightweight sports cars like Caterhams and Elises are easy on tyres and brakes and can pretty much be driven on track all day long with no ill-effects. Most conventional road car nowadays are pretty heavy and can be hard on both - perhaps Porsches are an exception.

On the other hand they don't really stack up on the road, especially if you need usable rear seats, a boot, a roof, aircon etc...

SS7

I was commenting to the missus last week after hurling it through some roundabouts/corners/straight bits near my place, it's amazing how such a competent road car could disappoint so much on the track.

Like this morning 0430 start Norwich->Sunbury ~140miles by 0615.  In total comfort, 26mpg, arrive refreshed.

Try that in the Caterfield.

Andy

Well, at least this post seems to agree that just because it has an "M" badge on the boot it doesnt have any performance failings, a refreshing change

Yep, agreed, caterhams and the like would be much more like a true track day weapon.

I saw a Radical on the road for the first time last Sunday, now that did look a mean piece of kit...

I too find it hard to believe how the E36 M3 can be so good in day to day driving yet fails admirably on track. I experienced hurrendous brake fade on track but realise that it was as much my fault as the cars, leaving braking far to late and putting the pedal through the floor to slow it down does not work.

As i can't afford another car i intend to concentrate on sharpening up my 3.0, after all it is ten years old and could do with an overhaul in all the essential areas.

I know the e36 M3 has much more power, however, everything ive ever read on the e30 M3 says what an awesome track day car they are...Which seems logical as the e30 was built to win races and the E36 was a "just" a performance road car, right?

How much better is the E30 over the E36 on the track?

I don't think my brake problem arose from them running too cold judging from the putrid stench of brakes on fire every time I came in :)

If those rubber pipes are past their best, when filled with 200 degree brake fluid they will swell and take up my pedal travel rather than put the pads onto the disk, I am certain braided hoses would solve the long pedal I was getting. 

If the pedal was firm but I was having to lift myself off the seat standing on it to slow down, then I'd accept a pad/disk problem.

I might consider getting braided pipes, or alternatively take your suggestions -- brake like a pussy from hundreds of meters away just to maintain an equilibrium, then spend a bit of effort sorting out the understeer with tyre pressures.

Andy

lancelotII wrote: brybusa wrote: I know the e36 M3 has much more power, however, everything ive ever read on the e30 M3 says what an awesome track day car they are...Which seems logical as the e30 was built to win races and the E36 was a "just" a performance road car, right? How much better is the E30 over the E36 on the track?   This has been discussed many times before and normally is a fairly emotive subject. The purists love the E30 (like me.. ) However, in stock form it still exhibits similar characteristics to the e36, it will understeer, the brakes are ok, but won't last for ever, but in terms of balance and feel it's in a different league. The steering is sublime (BMW still haven't made a car that steers as well). The engine is less powerful than the e36, but you don't need to slow down so much for the corners, it's all about carrying speed momentum and commitment. For a comparison why not join us at Brands on the evening of the 22nd, I would be pleased to chauffeur you around for a couple of laps, after that you can draw your own conclusions.....

I can well imagine its an emotive subject!

22nd May?

Would that be just be an evening ?..If so, what time would I need to be there?

Are you on the full circuit?

Thats enough questions for now.....

__Andy__ wrote:   Any ideas?  Have I bought an overweight hairdresser's car in the mistaken belief that a bit of development was done on the racetrack? Andy

Sell it and buy an E30!

lancelotII wrote: I can well imagine its an emotive subject! 22nd May? Would that be just be an evening ?..If so, what time would I need to be there? Are you on the full circuit? Thats enough questions for now.....         Sorry, June 22nd, Track normally opens at 5pm and it's on the Indy circuit, which is nice.

Right, so if I ask for half a days hols on the 22nd you'll def take me for a whazz on the track?...and then go out for a spin on the back of my Hayabusa?!...Road or track!

lancelotII wrote: I'll definately take you out in the car, I'll pass on the bike though, thanks......

Thanks, ive asked for half a days hols..cant wait!

Cheers

 B

Excellent...Add a pair of bucket seats,harness and a roll cage for me please!

Ive stuck the date in the calander, thanks again.

PS..I also lurk around the e30zone (used to have a 325)and often meet up with some of the e30 lads @ the Ace Cafe..So give us a shout if you pop down to one of the meets down there

......what's the deal to join in at Brands??

.......I'm at Donnington in the morning of 22nd, (Ron Haslam race school on a fireblade) so I'll be bang up for a tear around Brands in my hairdresser's car later that day.......got the day booked off already.....Shirley things couldn't be that simple........

Well,

Some intresting thoughts and similar feelings. I would never track my E36 for the very reasons that have been posted. It was never meant to be a track car, whereas the E30 was a designed to go racing with.

One needs to think as to what the car was orginally designed for, as to how well it will perform on track. A heavy weight motorway cruiser is not going to be nimble around corners, and will strain braking components with repertive heavy braking. Its also can be simple, courses for horses.

Long motorway trips, comfort, refinement etc = E36

Sprints round tight corners, track work, back roads, driver enjoyment = E30

See you on the 22nd at Brands, and off to the Ring the following morning. Life`s great.

Regards,

Dave.

Uwe,

If BMW did not develope the E30 M3 to go racing, why did they just not use the standard E30 shell with the S14 in. Somewhere I`ve read that the E30 M3 was developed  with the intent to go racing with it, as the old 635`s were gettiing on in years, and were no longer competertive.

I will try and dig up where I read this.

Regards,

Dave

Dave,

I have a carbon E36  S14 airbox, with additional ports for injectors if you go that route. Let me know, or I willl end up modifying it and using it on my 2.0L S14 2002  M2 project.

Regards,

Dave

Hi All

Well...Im sorry to say..but what an absolute load of old guff ...an E36 M3 a hairdressers car?? rubbish on the track?? Naah...DONT THINK SO!

Although Im fairly new to the M3 owners club I have driven my friends E36 Evo at a track day in addition to the Toyota Supra I used to have. Ive also had numerous fast bikes and track dayed them all at some time (to the gent who started this thread!).

Ok, so my friend has done a reasonable amount of work on his car (suspension, ECU Remap etc) and it does have quality tyres on it from what I can remember (Pilot SLs I think?) but it was an excellent track day car even when compared to my last Jap import Supra TT.

You know what they say about a bad workman blaming his tools and all that!

If you cant go fast in an M3 you will struggle in most cars in my humble opinion....

CHeers

Back to the original topic...

Andy how did you find the suspension? I haven't found my evo to understeer as drastically as you have although I haven't been out on track with it yet. (understeer in corners with other cars has been cleaned up massively by braking earlier)

What I have found however is that the weight transfer of the car when cornering on standard suspension is a little shocking for what is allegedly an M car. Feels far to soft. I am thinking of stiffer springs and perhaps some arb fine tuning may be in order.

edited to add: But I am not keen on investing in a car that will not be as engaging when driven hard as I would like...

Its supposed to be soft becuase its a compromise BMW have built in ,they have to take into account fast road driving(but NOT track work)and being able to give a good ride quality, absorb poor road surfaces, all with differing weights/loads in the car.

As I said its a compromise...more for the road than the track.

m3kuk wrote: The point about the Evo's 'soft' suspension is a good one,but it's supposed to be like that! They designed a certain ammount of 'body roll' into the handling and it's this along with the passive rear wheel steering that allows an Evo to pull 1G while cornering. The E30 was designed in a different era when sports cars had rock hard suspension,and little roll. Once you master an Evo's handling(took me 3 months)you will enjoy it so much more! As for the 'race bred' thing,my brother has a V*lva T5 Estate,I've driven it and it's rubbish,you dont drive,but set sail! But in 'race form' even this car won races in the BTCC! Maybe an E30 will be as quick on a tight twisty circuit but I think an Evo would do the 'ring faster. Steve Soper tracked about 30 'M' cars round the Top Gear track and the Evo beat the E30 by a couple of secs. Before I get cocky,the E46 M3 cab beat my car! It's just progress!

Guess you're right, just a little strange to have so much body roll in the car - feels almost wallowy. The real test will be some time this summer. Will start with some track pads and fine tune as appropriate. For some reason I never feel like driving the evo fast on the road which is part of the reason I am not as confident with the car as I would like - had it for over 6 months now.

 I'd love to see that Top Gear data - was it magazine or televised?

brybusa wrote: Its supposed to be soft becuase its a compromise BMW have built in ,they have to take into account fast road driving(but NOT track work)and being able to give a good ride quality, absorb poor road surfaces, all with differing weights/loads in the car. As I said its a compromise...more for the road than the track.

Well aware that it is a compromise car - in fact I bought it for exactly that purpose. Just seems a little tame compared even to the e46 (as a passenger at least).

Hmmm... was thinking about selling up the other day but tbh what do you change to within the budget?

May wait for e46 cars to move more towards 15-20 territory or go for something completely different.