Newbie question - I'm looking at buying either a 330Ci with the sport pack and with the spare cash buy a E30 M3 or pour it all into a E46 M3.

Is the E46 M3 quantifiably better that the 330Ci to justify the extra cash?

There is no comparison at all as Stone says.

Just go drive one.  You won't need to ask any more questions.

Northerner - you must drive one.  The two cars simply aren't comparable at all.

A 330Ci has 231bhp, an M3 has 343bhp....that's about as quantifiable as anyone would want!

You really could be give a list that was pages long.

Here's what to do - get someone to DRIVE YOU in a 330Ci.

Then get the same person to DRIVE YOU in an M3.

In one, you'll feel it's quite quick.  In the other, well I'll let you find out.

therealmccoy wrote: northerner wrote: Newbie question - I'm looking at buying either a 330Ci with the sport pack and with the spare cash buy a E30 M3 or pour it all into a E46 M3. Is the E46 M3 quantifiably better that the 330Ci to justify the extra cash?   It really depends what you want the car(s) for... All three are totally different in all ways... Do you want to do Trackdays? Or just normal roads?

I could not agree more.

I am quite sure that an E46 M3 is considerably quicker and a completely different drive to a 330. 

In its defence I would say that a 330 sport has a reasonable turn of speed and in most normal driving situations (ie hundreds of miles up and down the motorway, round town or getting from A to B across country) it is more than adequate.

If however you are looking for an enthusiasts "drive of your life" then I would think it probaly lies in the E46 M3 (not that I have ever had the pleasure of driving one).

Von Paulus wrote: Only buy an M3 with the manual 'box and a BMW warranty. They've had quite a few engine problems.

What????

Sorry, but the engine problems were all resolved on recalls and very few people ended up footing their own bill.  It was purely hype and the odd car story getting blown out of all proportion.

Furthermore, the SMG software issues would have been resolved on recalls too.

I agree about the warranty side personally, but an awful lot of people buy them without one and get few issues.

However, the point I gave my "What???" about was the Manual box statement.

I had an E46 M3 Manual and changed to an E46 M3 SMGII - the latter being far superior in my opinion. 

The manual is notchy, difficult for 1st and 2nd changed in particular, and just not suited to any amount of heavy traffic/slow driving.

SMG holds it's residuals better too and whereas I fell for the original desire to have a "purist" drive with a manual I was soon proved wrong. 

Von Paulus wrote: So why is there a website called 'engine of Damocles' devoted to the E46 M3 engine?

This is old hat - there is a website of such ilk devoted to almost every car you can think of.

I can only speak from personal experience rather than quoted sources, and having driven both Manual and SMG I think (as per the above user too) that SMGII is far superior.

Von Paulus wrote: SMG is not that clever. At present the major problem is the clutch slave cylinder and you cannot buy one on it's own so it's a complete gearbox replacement. Also, the electronics are all made by........ MAGNETTI MARELLI (FIAT!!)

Disagree, I think the "SSG" box is made by the above, is/was a five speed variant available on 325 and 330 coupe and saloon models. The SMG box is made by a different manufacturer, whos name has escaped me for now? I have an article somewhere which details the technical differences between the two and which manufacturer made which.

I've yet to see a sub £25k M3 at a dealers anyway!

Ah, early or high milers for age, I see.  They must be low on spec too I'd guess (although perhaps the 02 is a bit higher)?

£24k is about as low as it gets (as you say ignoring screen price which you'd always do anyway) for a dealer sold model, but it's a lot of smiles for the money!

You can't properly compare an E46 M3 with a Porsche 911 - and for one very good reason.

One is a true 4 seater, the other is a 2 seater sports car.

I love my M3, but I've said it on here before that if I didn't want to take the family on summer hood-down trips out.....I'd take a 911 over an M3 without hesitation.

They're just different animals for the seating alone.

You'd get a very basic M3 for £39k mind you, even after haggling.

You're right though, for £40k there is nothing to match it (unless you want an Audi S4 of course, but they're for girls only...).

Coasting wrote: Ah, early or high milers for age, I see.  They must be low on spec too I'd guess (although perhaps the 02 is a bit higher)? £24k is about as low as it gets (as you say ignoring screen price which you'd always do anyway) for a dealer sold model, but it's a lot of smiles for the money!

very true  excellent smiles per pound i coundnt agree more ....but as stoneisland points out ..asking price is very diffrent from the cars acutal sale price ....its been as mad as a hatter since the new launch of the 3  [the market doesnt know where its at with e 46 pricing] ...ive seen a late 02 plate m3 top spec sold today at just below 20k ..and there was nothing wrong with it ..ok i admit thats a trade price ..but even in the trade thats well below what its worth ..  the world is going mad

Well whoever bought that got an utter bargain - because Glasses have them going UP this month due to BMW confirming they'll go out of production early 2006 and that there'll be a years gap to the E90 M3 in 2007.

Coasting wrote: Well whoever bought that got an utter bargain -

they did .and he has the new owner taking it next week after its been through prep and workshop ...and hes made a very handsome profit

 your spot  on with the glasses guide ...they should go up

Well you know better than the trade at this moment in time then.

Of course they'll go down, eventually.  However, the old 5-series actually took a slight rise on release of the new 5 too - because people didn't take to it's looks initially.

Naturally that subsided relatively quickly, but right now I can only go on the facts and that's precisely what I've written.

Upon the opportunity for buyers to confirm specs on the E90 M3 (expected to be around September 2006) then yes the E46 will show signs of steeper decline.  Until then, well let's wait and see.

Ultimately, I don't buy my cars as investments (because only a fool would for the return you're likely to get on even the wisest of spent capital on cars), but it's always nice to hear that depreciation is slower or on the upward.

von     ..sorry but have to disagree ..yep your right the e46 M range will drop in money  ....but not down down down ..yes ive seen a few go through the doors [auction] at cheap money .but thats mearly because the odd dealer was wanting rid quickly .and wanting new money to put in to other cars [cashflow]

and the other one that went for a song   was an early 01 plate .that found its way out of the bmw network.hence an M car with little history = dealer had it on the pitch for 5 weeks ..not a sole intrested.so passed on through the pearly doors of auction as he doesnt keep stock in longer than 5 weeks

but they must be wanted as only the trade can buy at these places..so the cars are going back in to the market .for a retrial.and by judging on some my freinds faces when there bid was taken ..iam sure there happy bunnys and have found buyers for them before they placed the money on the car

if your in the trade that 750 of yours was had for a song to i bet .

 i would have never wanted to be the first owner of a 750 ....ouch that hurts

Thanks for your replies, but one possibly silly question - does the M3 have 4 or 5 seats? 

northerner wrote: Also which is the best to own and run - E39 M5 or E46 M3?

e46 m3    =best to own

e39 m5 = best to run

northerner wrote: Thanks for your replies, but one possibly silly question - does the M3 have 4 or 5 seats?

Four seats.

Von Paulus wrote: True. 750i was £88 big ones new, bought it 2 yrs old for rather less than half that. Worth about 2p and a button now with 123'000 on the clock It's just that Coasting's comment about values rising when they go out of production make me fall off my chair laughing. He should be on TV!

You're obviously just much better informed that anyone else I know.

I bow to your superior knowledge.  Say hi to AndyB too, or is it just easier talking to yourself?

Tell you what, I'll ignore your posts in future - do me the honour of the same please.

I would have to disagree with everyone here!  I would suggest buy a nice 330Ci Sport and a with the spare money get a really good E30 M3.  I would far rather have both of them than an E46 M3.  330Ci as a comfy, refined but still sporty & fast everyday car and the E30 M3 (and stick on a classic insurance policy that'll only cost you a couple of hundred quid to insure) is THE driving machine.  Great for 'staging', trackdays etc and it won't depreciate.  Whereas the E46 M3 will depreciate a lot.  You can get good E36 M3's for 6k now - and BMW sold loads of E46 M3's so in time they will depreciate as much. 

BTW - I can't wait until they do as I'll buy one in 5 years for about 9k

brett

i would think that next by summer there will be e46 m3s about the 18k mark [in genral circulation ie .auto trader etc]..but i woundnt want to touch a motor for that money as it is doubtfull it will be in nice condition.etc etc they will most probably highly warn ....highly mileage examples that the prestige retailers wont touch

i could be wrong  

your best bet brett[sorry the pun]is to find one thats just come out of the bmw network .[say one indy stamp in the service records].but the owner is wanting to trade it in at a bmw dealership..dealership then either ..trades it straight on.or doesnt take car ...but will offer low ££ to the owner and tell him thats its not worth much etc [dont you just love car saleman].hence as in my prevoius post .you will see  why the odd m3 has gone for a song

I know many fans will not wish to agree with this but although the M3 is a great car (all versions), there are one hell of a lot of them out there, and also lots of alternatives for someone who doesn't care obout the odd 0.5 on the 0-60 or the BMW m3 badge.  I did a search on AT for an M3 within 100 miles of where i live between £20k and £30k and there were stacks of them being sold ! 

I think the prices will continue to slide fairly quick and can see quite a batch of decent E46 M3's available for £15k to £20k within 18 months.

Feel free to tell me Im wrong, but even a 330ci with an ASA supercharger still wont be on a par with an M3

Peppernick on the BMW Car Mamagine forum got his 330ci clubsport supercharged at the back end of last year , hes since sold it and bought an M3.

I think he'd be the first to tell you that they are in a totally different league.

If your in the market for a Black 51 plate 330ci sport tho PM me, as mine is for-sale.

northerner wrote: Newbie question - I'm looking at buying either a 330Ci with the sport pack and with the spare cash buy a E30 M3 or pour it all into a E46 M3. Is the E46 M3 quantifiably better that the 330Ci to justify the extra cash?

Honestly,

First question, yes.. of course the E46 M3 is WAY better than the 330ci. But you're asking the wrong question.

I don't know anyone who in their right mind would buy an E46 M3 over an E30 EVO coupled against a more sane 3 series. Driving high performance cars on the long commute makes no sense other than for 'pose' value. Some of the answers posted above are typical of owners who are being asked about the very car they already own. I can't have too much of a go, I own a ZM and defend it to the hilt, and it (rightly) comes in for way more stick than the E46 ever did.

Before I start I'll say the E46 is truly a cracking machine and good enough to make Porsche re-think the whole 'challenging' handling thing the old 996s had, not to mention the power hikes we've seen in the 997. So with that in mind..

If 90% of your time is devoted to motorways then buy a 320 or 330d. The 330ci sits in an awkward place between models though I suspect the new E90 version will be less afflicted. The Clubsport is qwerky but could be a potential depreciation landslide. The 330D is faster real world and an M3 has to work hard in a straight line, mid range, to leave one convincingly.

I'd instead opt to buy an E30 M3 with the change and enjoy a truly focussed lightweight special, a car (CSL aside) the E46 M3 can never be, why because the E46 has to be compromised between comfort, handling, reliability, safety, emissions and economy. That said it's a truly glorious compromise at that.

So if you have the luxury to own 2 cars that are focussed to the tasks you require then I'd say go for the 2. Your fuel economy will be better and what additonal you pay in insurance (unlikely if you get a limited miles policy on the E30) will be easily off-set by the depreciation of the E46 M3 as we near the new E90 M3. The E30 will remain a classic and its value has already flattened nicely. It is a true homologation special with true motorsport roots. The E46 is a pastiche for those who buy into the brand. It's a great car but is wrapped up in excess weight.

Best 2 all.

 J

beaker wrote: I think the prices will continue to slide fairly quick and can see quite a batch of decent E46 M3's available for £15k to £20k within 18 months.

Excellent.  Once the E46 CSL is down to £15k (5+ years I expect), I'm going shopping  

Steve.

Just make sure they've had their bottom-end recall as any E46s that have gone out of warranty may fall of the radar and be potential time bombs further down the line.

SundayJumper wrote: beaker wrote: I think the prices will continue to slide fairly quick and can see quite a batch of decent E46 M3's available for £15k to £20k within 18 months. Excellent.  Once the E46 CSL is down to £15k (5+ years I expect), I'm going shopping   Steve.

Wow. On the horizon a convergence in prices soon between those of the best E30 M3's and the cheapest E46's.

Von Paulus wrote: This is what I was trying to tell Coasting - an E46 M3,  as fabulous as they are, are really just a very fast 3 Series. Not meant in any way for cometition ans thus, a compromise. As for the Convertible, I really  don't get those at all. But I've always been relatively discreet with cars so I wouldn't understand. They're actually a very civilised and easy to drive car.

It's a touchy issue this as few owners would want to admit that the 'M' now stands more for marketing than Motorsport. They are a lovely drive but that engine is wasted in runnign back and forth along the motorway or down to the shops. As for being a hardcore drivers car then you only have look at Japanese specials to see how far the gap has grown between 'M' and the rest. The CSL showed what cou be done if only they got the cost down a little or gave it enough power to compete properly with the Porsche specials. It would be nice to see M Gbmh build some truly special cars but much of that hinges on BMW making something they can use in the first place not transform something quite humble into the special. Don't get me wrong, I can happily live with an M car purely on its engine alone BUT give us what we need: a Boxster coupe-rivalling MCoupe. Big power, low weight and a superb chassis.

MCC1 wrote: Praktisk What are you buying when you sell your 330Ci ?  OR maybe its a big secret

No big secret ... a true performance beast is on the cards......

In the form of a Vaxhall Astra or Ford Fiesta Van. Needs must im afraid.

Short term pain = long term gain tho as they say.

I respect those cars a lot yet they leave me cold for they are a bit dull when off the boil and the Mitsi 4-pot has to be the dullest sounding 4-pot ever devised. Do like the MRs but the servicing is plain silly.. Scoobie WR Type 25 an absolute loon of a car but has the looks of the ugly bird of the girl you really fancy (in this case an E46 M3).

However I look at Noble and see that can be done from very basic components with much smaller budgets. M Gbmh has twice the talent and 20 times the budget yet are constraiend bvy corporate BMW. The biggest problem has been BMWs insistence of gettign back into F1 and marketing V10 engines when they need to be in GT and endurance and buidling some sport cars.

For me things went downhill for 'M' after the M1. Which is a bit of a sad state. The E30 M3 for me was the last true M car.

Does M = Motor..way. Perhaps.

The CSL gives me hope and the MCoupe showed a devlish side still exists in there.. somewhere. BMW seems focussed to adding CSLs to each line up. Isn't that what the M-car is supposed to be in the first place?

With the possibility of a 3 series 3 litre turbo - I really don't see the place of the M3 anymore.. or is it CSL..  BMW should sell and market one halo 3 series model and offer add-on luxuries or clubsport trim to suit needs. It's like the GT3-RS 911. Why have both models. Offer one model in differt trims like they used to do. CAR MAKERS - STOP DIFFERNTIATING THE MARKET WITH INVISIBLE LINES THAT AREN'T THERE!!!!  It's the McDonald's 1000 variations of a theme and what do the Americas do - they sell different platform cars with the same engine config (5.7l anyone) .. crazy.. what's the point???

BUT I'm in a it of a dilehma because the M5 has neem a true great road car for so many years and is almost unbeatable, again making the E46 superflous. Why own an E46 M3 when you can have an E39 M5 second hand for less money?? From a drivers perspective my problem is I don't see the purpose of the M3 when other 3 series do 90% as good and other M cars past and present can do the whole track thing so much better.

Perhaps because of the Macca it's as if BMW doesn't feel they need to try. I mean Bugatti-VAG chasing a car years later than was powered by an engine not far removed from 2 M3 engines. I also think BMW's abandoning of the turbo after the 2002 was its' biggest faux pas.

Of course from a marketing perspective I can completely undertand the purpose of the M3, but that doesn't mean I'd buy one despite how good it is. If anthing it'll get better as the M3 wil become distinguished by a V8 engine to go up against the Audi S4/RS4 but I still think BMW fudge too many halo cars into too many ranges, placing more pressure on M Gmbh to turn around new models.

Give M Gmbh a 2-3 cars top to turn into true drivers cars. Get more involved in Motorsport and let's see those cars race therein.

You know you start typing and then you can't stop, apologies..

J

Guys, you're forgetting something - it's the buyers choice.

Whether you think the purist feel should be available only or not, the fact is BMW know they'd struggle to sell them without certain options.

I too find it strange that some options are picked by buyers (PDC being one of them) but I can understand someone picked aircon perhaps.

To say the options shouldn't be offered at all is just ignoring the market the company has to sell them to.

Agree entirely Rhys (and my comment about PDC was purely in relation to the CSL).

Different people buy different cars for different reasons - the trick is to recognise that not everyone wants the same out of a car that you do.

However, to say that the M cars of today mean "Marketing" and are wasted because they're just used for motorways and trips to the shops, well what sort of response do people expect to comments such as that?  Stereotypical opinions based on little substance or fact, and quite what that comment is meant to contribute to a community feel on the forums I do not know.

Coasting wrote: Guys, you're forgetting something - it's the buyers choice. Whether you think the purist feel should be available only or not, the fact is BMW know they'd struggle to sell them without certain options. I too find it strange that some options are picked by buyers (PDC being one of them) but I can understand someone picked aircon perhaps. To say the options shouldn't be offered at all is just ignoring the market the company has to sell them to.

I'd agree - it's not about options as such - it's the model range in the first place. Pt being BMW seems to have got it right based on sales and in the end that's what counts to them not the opinion of the minority hard core, which I'm afraid we fall into.

Coasting wrote: However, to say that the M cars of today mean "Marketing" and are wasted because they're just used for motorways and trips to the shops, well what sort of response do people expect to comments such as that?  Stereotypical opinions based on little substance or fact, and quite what that comment is meant to contribute to a community feel on the forums I do not know.

I fear you take this a little to heart m8. This thread has actually turned into a good debate with some thought provoking content and a step up from some of the dross posted. May it continue and I hope you can participate without taking matters personally. If you read my comments in context you'll see I actually have a strong affinity for M cars and any discussion as to where BMW is going with the brand is only healthy. If we didn't love M cars we wouldn't be here.

Chin up, ears open!

At least by retaining a harder edge in some parts of the range BMW can continue to justify the 'M' badge. The absence of a proper 2+2 coupe (ala 911) beign one area I hope the forthcoming M4 addresses. M6 is great but it's a big ol' thang.

M used to so much more than Audi Sport.. now I can't really distinguish the 2 particuarly and no doubt Audi-VAG have benefitted from their successes in DTM and Le Mans.

tw99 wrote: Someone said earlier that there's no point in running an M-car as a daily driver. That's only true if you agree that we might as well all be driving around in 1.1 Fiestas as they actually satisfy 95% of anyone's transport requirements. Case in point: My E36 EVO is in the dealer at the moment, and I've had a 120i Sport for 3 days as a loan car. It gets me to work in about the same time as the M3, goes "fast enough" on the motorway, but I certainly don't have a smile on my face when I'm driving it...

Fair point but many the E36 EVO is proving itself not the long-term reliable commuter BMW had us believe. We under appreciate the engines because th eprice tags seem very reasonable yet their is a lot of technology in an M engine to go pop. I'm not saying M cars shouldn't be used on the road, far from it as some of the great M5s have shown themselves to be some of the best road cars of all time. Just that I said they're wasted on the commute grind.

The E46 M3 was built to balance the requirements of the average buyer. It's not a track car but the CSL shows the potential in the chassis. I hope that if they continue to retain the 'CSL' monikier that it leads to wilder, more focussed variants that can truly rival Porsche, Audi 'RS' and Japanese etc. The talent is there but much now depends on global marketing as BMW have moved deep into the mainstream to secure its financial future.

I'd actually like to see 'M' become more autonomous and build focussed sport cars emplying the superb BMW technology. Imagine that M-V10 in a sub 1500 kilo mid engined layout 2 seater. I know I have.  Only then do you realise how far M is off it's potential. In this case M can blame its tools..

Well I run an E46 M3 Convertible as a daily drive, and that's exactly what it gets.

It presents no problems whatsoever. 

Yes, we have a second car in the form of a 320d SE, but my wife runs that daily and we might use it on extra long runs with more luggage (because even with the hood tray in the up position the M won't quite carry the same amount as the Saloon).

I actually bought a car (a Subaru Legacy 2.5 V6 Estate) earlier this year with the intention of it being my winter and daily run car, keeping the M in the garage etc until the Spring/Summer months were amongst us or for when the weather for truly awful and I didn't want to get the M filthy.

What happened?  Well short of 2 weeks of driving it and I was as sick as a parrot.  I was missing the M too much and thought of my hard earned cash going to waste in the garage if I had a car I decided not to drive every day.  Hence, the Legacy went (and I made a slightly profit which was even nicer!) and happy days came back in the M.

Can't blame you for that Coasting.. an M car is always a lovely drive but only becomes a great drive IMHO when taken off the beaten track, or on track..

Back to topic: I'd still opt for one of BMWs fine diesels for commuting. Maybe with the sport kit if you want a sense of occasion. I'd then have an E30 for back road blasting and track work for it's balance and light inertia is surely what tyou want on those occassions. It's a classic and will never be replicated whereas the E46 is destined to become a defunct model variant once the E90 M3 comes along. I think it'll still make a great buy and perhaps the last and best we'll see of the S50 to S54 3.2 gen engines.

Great car at what it does with a much wider range of talents than previous models but for those few 'focussed' moments - give me an E30 any day.

M BLUR wrote: First question, yes.. of course the E46 M3 is WAY better than the 330ci. But you're asking the wrong question.

Thanks for all your feedback - I understand that the M3 will be better than a 330Ci but I would expect so for a premium of @40%.

Unfortunatley, I don't have pockets as deep as the ocean and have to justify any expenditure. Also, resale is a concern with the E90 looming large. If I bought a M3, I would not dare to take it to a track day in case any damage is caused to the car. So the enjoyment of running a E46 M3 must outweight the cost and enjoyment of running a 330Ci and a E30 M3 for track days.

Also the wife has to drive it  

northerner wrote: M BLUR wrote: First question, yes.. of course the E46 M3 is WAY better than the 330ci. But you're asking the wrong question. Thanks for all your feedback - I understand that the M3 will be better than a 330Ci but I would expect so for a premium of @40%. Unfortunatley, I don't have pockets as deep as the ocean and have to justify any expenditure. Also, resale is a concern with the E90 looming large. If I bought a M3, I would not dare to take it to a track day in case any damage is caused to the car. So the enjoyment of running a E46 M3 must outweight the cost and enjoyment of running a 330Ci and a E30 M3 for track days. Also the wife has to drive it

I can't disagree with any of that.  Fit for purpose springs to mind.

indeed chaps. A good discussion.

Northener - let us see pics once you've made your new acquisitions.

Best 2 all.

Von Paulus,

The reason BMW can do it (build an M3) for the money is because a large part of the development costs of this variant(bodyshell, myriad electrical components, suspension, crash testing, major interior mouldings, type approval & compliance work, etc etc) plus manufacturing facilities & marketing costs can be offset against millions of 318i's and 320d's. BMW also benefit from huge component buying power their bread & butter car volume gives them.

Far from offering great value, I suspect it costs BMW nothing like 2x a 318 to build an M3, and they make a nice fat profit from each one thanks. So in this respect it offers rather poor value for money.

Porsche, on the other hand, have a much smaller volume to amortise their development, manufacturing & marketing costs. This is why they were forced to common platform the 996/986, and yet the 997 (from £58k) is still more than an M3.

SS7

Fair point Shoestring, which makes it all the sadder that BMW don't create a true 911 beater.

But they did - the CSL.  I have been in a 911 C4S that was murdered by one.

Coasting wrote: But they did - the CSL.  I have been in a 911 C4S that was murdered by one.

But against a GT3 or RS? C4S different car - more comparble to the stock M3 except on price.

I look forward to the next gen M3 CSL.. 440bhp will be good if they get it into action quick enough. Power should be keeping pace with Porsche as a rule but M have not increased capacity of the 3.2, which is already pushing it's boundaries and even a racing flowed, blueprinted and balanced isn't going to push much past 400bhp. And that would be awfully peaky with an aggressive cam etc.

M BLur,

The next gen M3 will be a V8. And will probably still do 'only' 155mph.

SS7

shoestring7 wrote: M BLur, The next gen M3 will be a V8. And will probably still do 'only' 155mph. SS7

Interesting discussion.

Shoestring, you have hit the nail on the head there. Given the choice between a 911 and an M3, if you take price out of the equation, I would always go for the 911. A proper sports car doesn't have a 155mph limiter on it. Also the fact that the 911 was designed from the start as a sports car whereas the M3 is based on an executive saloon.

Mind you I've not driven either so what do I know.

As for the original question, I'd go for a 320D, then get an E30 M3 (or a Porcshe 968CS) for the weekend

While I understand the attraction of the E46 M3, I can't see the point in buying one to do the daily comute. I only have a 328 but I have to admit that even it seems wasted on the daily drudge of the 30mph trawl to work. The roads are so busy these days that I hardly ever get the chance to use the power. With an M3 I can only imagine how much more apparent that would be.

Peter Fenwick wrote: Interesting discussion.  Shoestring, you have hit the nail on the head there. Given the choice between a 911 and an M3, if you take price out of the equation, I would always go for the 911. A proper sports car doesn't have a 155mph limiter on it. Also the fact that the 911 was designed from the start as a sports car whereas the M3 is based on an executive saloon.

Ah yes, but Peter, you've forgotten why the 911 wasn't an option for me?

Four seats.  Simple.  That is the big draw.  A survey of buyers who DIDN'T choose a 911 showed that for something like 80% of them it was because they wanted it...but with 4 proper seats.

You know my thoughts on the car.  It's superb.  The 911 Turbo Cab is still on my list of replacements (probably have to be a year or two years old) but even then I'll have to go through the whole 4 v 2 seats, family days out v myself and wife days out debate.

Mind you I've not driven either so what do I know.

If ever you get to a Northeast meet I'll take you for spin...not literally.

As for the original question, I'd go for a 320D, then get an E30 M3 (or a Porcshe 968CS) for the weekend

I would sing the plaudits of the 320d everyday.  We went for the SE Saloon purely because of the 4 doors and that the kids go in that more often than they do mine.  As a workhorse with the ability to cruise at speed and return silly mpg it's simply peerless in my opinion (for the money).  For what the original poster wanted, the combo above seems to fit the bill perfectly.

While I understand the attraction of the E46 M3, I can't see the point in buying one to do the daily comute. I only have a 328 but I have to admit that even it seems wasted on the daily drudge of the 30mph trawl to work. The roads are so busy these days that I hardly ever get the chance to use the power. With an M3 I can only imagine how much more apparent that would be.

So you buy it with the SMGII box...and slip it into Auto when stuck in traffic.

All traffic breaks at some point and even if I only get to flip the paddles down a few times en route it's enough to bring a huge smile to my face - and that makes the daily drive of a M3 well worth it!

shoestring7 wrote: M BLur,The next gen M3 will be a V8. And will probably still do 'only' 155mph.SS7

That's true but it's funny how they wont use the old E39 V8, which already has worldwide homologation. BMW are continuing to make money out of that engine through supplying to low volume sport car makers and is good up to 500bhp but I have no doubt BMW have avoided this as the engine produces enough torque to give the M5/M6 a real fright + the market is very focussed on map rpm and power p/litre right now. Okay the new engine will be lighter aiding handling but if the old block weas set bar enough back and it's pretty short anyway then that wouldn't have been much of an issue.

I wish they had been brave enough to use the flat plane V8 from the GTR but I guess economy and reliability woudl remain issues, pity.

That's very true - there is no doubt the E90 M3 will be somewhat 'shackled'.

The next M3 CSL, well that could be an altogether different proposition.

And a mouth-watering one at that Coasting..

I would also like to add, I had an e36 328ci, and then I traded it in for an e46 330ci, maybe I got a bad car but, the 328 would have left the 330 standing, in all respects !!! acceleration, top speed etc.

I then traded the 330 in for an e46 M3, the difference is absolutely astounding, there is just no comparison, its`s like the difference between night and day !!

I think everyone here is in agreement that the M3 is heads ans shoulders above 328 and 330i models and anyone who has experienced the M 3 litre and 3.2 engines, as most of us have, and M handling will never disagree on that.

However the question is whether to go for the E30 M3 as a cost viable choice for track leaving a more sensible car for the road. I'd say that still makes sense for those on a budget.

Eventually I want an M1 but I'd never commute in her. I'll happily do that in a BMW diesel with a smile in knowing that I can take out the M1 and use her as she was meant. The M3, by its very design, is aimed at the exec commuter market, rightly or wrongly, and so can do both roles but in doing so a compromise always has to be struck - thankfully BMW are pretty good at that these days.

Peter Fenwick wrote: Interestingly enough, Evo magazine rated the E46 M3 as the best Drivers BMW ever, that includes the E30 M3.

Aye, but we know better Peter  eh..

'Best Driver's Car'.. I've seen some dubious winners over the years: be it original Performance Car, Car, EVO... etc. Tiff Neddell once voted the MCoupe his drivers car of the year back in 2000 but many would argue that now. I think as an involving drive the MCoupe could teach the E46 quite a few things. If BMW had given the MCoupe the same range of techno aids, it would blow the heavier M3 away. Similarly I recall one of the mags doing a comparison of the E30 M3 against the MCoupe around the old 'Ring. Only on the back straight did the Coupe get away.

Those guys at EVO (especially the original PC guys) are pretty on the ball but the 'fashion of new' is still heavily prevalent in many mags of that ilk. I subscribe to EVO but I don't always agree.  For me the E46 is too heavy and too over-complicated for track work and for true lightness of touch back road driving. The EVO gives the rawer experience IMHO and the CSL gets back a lot of those original M values. At least in the E30 you know you're doing the driving, you know when you're making mistakes and you feel more of hero when you nail it. The E46 is the faster car and safer when fast but the I will own an E30 one day because new cars are increasingly compromised by legislation that surrounds car manufacture. I appreciate why that legislation is neccessary but it doesn't make better cars, safer perhaps but not better.

I respect the E30 for what it was and remains today. It's one of the daddy's in my book.

The E46 M3 remains one of the best all-rounder GTs and a truly lovely machine, which has to be enjoyed regardless of what you drive.

I'm also an evo subsriber and I don't always agree with everything they say. So much about driving is subjective and when all is said and done, most of what's written is merely someones opinion. I do however think that EVO is the best motoring magazine around at the moment and in terms of objectivity it is head and shoulders above the likes of Top Gear magazine.

On the subject of weight, the E46 M3 weighs in at 1570kg, compare that to the 996 carrera which tips the scales at just 1345kg. The M3 has been compared to the 911 in this thread. I'm just wondering how much difference that 225kg makes to the driving experience.

More the the point - how good could the M3 be if it weighed the same as a 911 and a CSL weighed the same as a GT3-RS. The effect to p-to-w would be great and handling potential would surely notch up a lot.

Peter Fenwick wrote: On the subject of weight, the E46 M3 weighs in at 1570kg, compare that to the 996 carrera which tips the scales at just 1345kg. The M3 has been compared to the 911 in this thread. I'm just wondering how much difference that 225kg makes to the driving experience.

a bit of subject ..but peter  ..try bikes ..180 kilos  and 150 bhp going through one wheel ...  that a real good ratio to weight and power ..it also gets you 0 to 60 in 2.8 seconds ..try buying a motor car that can do that for 8 k? brand new ....ok you will look funny in a "power ranger suit"[leathers] .but apart from a jet fighter plane theres nothing else to touch it or make you grin so much .and for some strange reason women tend to like the odd biker ..rather than the car driver   ...strange but true

pma1ums wrote: Peter Fenwick wrote: On the subject of weight, the E46 M3 weighs in at 1570kg, compare that to the 996 carrera which tips the scales at just 1345kg. The M3 has been compared to the 911 in this thread. I'm just wondering how much difference that 225kg makes to the driving experience. a bit of subject ..but peter  ..try bikes ..180 kilos  and 150 bhp going through one wheel ...  that a real good ratio to weight and power ..it also gets you 0 to 60 in 2.8 seconds ..try buying a motor car that can do that for 8 k? brand new ....ok you will look funny in a "power ranger suit"[leathers] .but apart from a jet fighter plane theres nothing else to touch it or make you grin so much .and for some strange reason women tend to like the odd biker ..rather than the car driver   ...strange but true

Craig ... Tis all well and good saying the women prefer a biker to a car driver, but the problem is, they dont know what there getting til the lid comes off.

You are right tho, Ive had it said to me from a few of the girlies I know MANY MANY times, that a nice bike and a decent pair of leathers is a real turn on.

So much so, I was nearly puttin a dipper down on a new R6 last year.

Luckily, common sense prevailed and Im still here today to tell the tale.

Ya ya ya.. bikes faster than cars.. Of course, 2 wheels, an engine and aone person - if they didn't go faster they'd be pointless. As is they're just plain dangerous. I used to have bikes and you can never match the rush or the accelertion but then the freedom of open air driving without a lid is IMHO far better and a good car still betters a bike when cruising  especially over long distances.

+ bike engines sound plain noisy compared to the myriad of tunes played by a good car engine.

Leathers are cool except wearing them.. roll out the talc and watch out for tank slap..

M BLUR wrote:   Leathers are cool except wearing them.. roll out the talc and watch out for tank slap..

lol you should have put watch out for the tank slappers ..they come in all shapes and sizes ..blonde and brunette.

MR P

get the R6 ...you will never look back

I heard the R6 is a bit feisty - the 'zsuki GSXR600 more easy to hustle whilst the Kawasak' is just plain crazy quick judging my last month's TWO group comparison.

your right m blur

the r6 is a beast to deal with and its realy suited to agresive riding styles ..its a bit of a hooligan bike ..on the other hand  .the honda cbr 600    is the best way to introduce yourselfs back on to a bike ..there ..fast .practical .easy to live with and just as fast as the others but better mannered than the others

or just go with 900 fireblade  .and stick a turbo to it ..if you want to have scary fun...the turbo actually works quiet well indeed

Craig,

I appreciate that bikes are faster than cars but I would still never buy one. If you crash on a bike you are going to stand a good chance of being seriously hurt. I've been in several crashes in cars and never been hurt. Also in a car you get to be warm, listen to music, take your mates and it has a boot.

I heard all the stuff about how it's easier to avoid an accident on a bike etc etc, but I'm not convinced. Also most bikers, who ride sports bikes, ride like nutters.

I just know if I got a bike I'd end up being scraped off the tarmac