I am interested in which oil Forum members with E39 M5's use - particularly cars built after February 2000.  I know that before that date the recommended oil was Castrol TWS 10w-60.

Also oil consumption - how many litres per mile??? It seems these cars tend to use a fair bit of oil.

Apologies to anyone who has already posted on the topic, but I am trying to pull the info together.

I should like to set it up as a poll but don't know how to!!!!

Regards

STEPHEN B

Stephen the help sections say:

coupesport,

I don't think I have enough rights yet!!

Even when logged it says I cannot create polls at the bottom RHS of the page.

Thanks anyway

SB

It is VERY important that you use the correct oil in the E39 M5 engine (S62 B50). This is due to changes made to the cylinder wall material from around Feb 02. If your car was built around this point I would recommend using the engine number to determin which oil to use.

Upto Feb 2000 use either Castrol TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 or Veedol Synthetic Z SAE 10W-60 which is also recommended by BMW.

After Feb 2000 you have a greater choice of oils availible to you, I would recommend Castrol SLX LL01 SAE 0W-30 having been using it without a problem since the introduction of the modified engine.

Hope this helps.

Andy (BMW Tech)

m3kuk wrote: Andy,what oil do they rec. for '96 M3 Evo mate?

There are many acceptable oils for this engine, again I use the Castrol SLX 0w-30 in these and have never seen wear or failiure using this oil.

Andy

Just ensure that the oil used is BMW LL01 Approved.

If you have problems sourcing it, I have four different ones.

You can always email me.

Cheers

Simon

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/lubricants.htm

Chaps,

I don't want to sound like a thick person here, but would value your collective wisdom, given the tone of replies on the E39 oil question.

I have an E30 Sport Evo M3, and have tried a number of oils.  I started with Mobil 1 (I think I used 0W40 and 5W50 grades) till I heard everyone saying that was a bad idea.  I had run it for 90,000 miles (changed every 6,000) in my Honday CRX when Mobil 1 first came out, and that car was as good when I got rid of it as when I got it. Then I tried ordinary Castrol GTX (I think 10W40) Magnatec for one service interval.

I now use Castrol Formula RS (10W60), and reckon it's pretty good. Between services, my cars tended to use about half of the range between the marks on the dipstick with all of the "other" oils I tried, and using the RS seems to have halved that.

Like I say, hearing your experiences would be interesting.

Good weekends all round.

Totally agree 100% and it's what I have been saying all along.

You can in fact use any 0w-30, 0w-40, 5w-30 or 5w-40 that is approved by BMW to the specific LL01 specification.

Cheers

Simon

oilman wrote: Totally agree 100% and it's what I have been saying all along. You can in fact use any 0w-30, 0w-40, 5w-30 or 5w-40 that is approved by BMW to the specific LL01 specification. Cheers Simon

Thanks for the confirmation Andy and Simon.

If any of you get BMW Car Magazine you will see in November's issue a letter from me on page 38, which I sent over 2 months ago, before discussing on the Forum or contacting Oilman.

You will note that the Mag contacted a main dealer and a specialist, both of whom advise (wrongly!!) TWS 10w-60.

I guess the message is still not getting through!

One last question, probably for Andy, - I thought my 2001 M5 had hydraulic tappets; I am surprised to find they are (what I thought obsolete!) "bucket and shim"!  Is this really right??

Regards

STEPHEN B

Regarding this: -

andygriff wrote: It is VERY important that you use the correct oil in the E39 M5 engine (S62 B50). This is due to changes made to the cylinder wall material from around Feb 02. If your car was built around this point I would recommend using the engine number to determin which oil to use. Upto Feb 2000 use either Castrol TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 or Veedol Synthetic Z SAE 10W-60 which is also recommended by BMW. After Feb 2000 you have a greater choice of oils availible to you, I would recommend Castrol SLX LL01 SAE 0W-30 having been using it without a problem since the introduction of the modified engine. Hope this helps. Andy (BMW Tech)

I'm not totally clear here - I need to top up the oil on my 2001 E39 M5 - which oil should I use?

Thanks - Darren (darrenbrook@btconnect.com)

Darren,

Your M5 should have been filled with Fully Synthetic LL-01 0w-30 (e.g. Castrol SLX) at its last service if done by a main dealer.  Therefore you should top up with the same.

Your service invoice should itemise the materials and the oil used.

If not it's probably worth checking what was used and topping up with the same.

However if your main dealer used TWS 10w-60 which is not an LL-01 BMW approved oil, he was wrong.  He should reread the BMW Technical bulletins.

I hope the Oilman reads these posts, because he is the expert - I am only passing on what I have learned by many hours of research!

Regards

STEPHEN B

I'm watching and would point out that Castrol is not obligatory just because it's the only oil the Dealers sell and have available. I sell it too but recommend the Fuchs as it's better value and factory fill! I in fact have 4 oils that meet the correct spec

Cheers

Simon

Timray,

The engine modifications were in March 2000 and later S62 engines fitted to the E39 M5.  I think Andygriff's reference to Feb 02 was a typo.  I think he meant Feb 00 as later in the post.

I would go for as late an M5 as possible as there is a greater chance that the dealers may have used the correct oil (i.e., not 10w-60) at the services or indeed that the engine hasn't come up to an oil change (15,000 miles or so) yet!!!

Whilst writing you may have noticed a letter in November's BMW Car Magazine from an American who has recently bought one of the last E39 M5s new and intends to keep it for along time.  he therefore is changing the oil every 3,000 miles and using 10w-60!!!  I will let Oilman explain why his engine might not last as long as he hopes!!

Regards

STEPHEN B

Timray,

Better leave this one for the experts - I'm getting out of my depth!!

Regards

STEPHEN

Ok, here's a quick description of what happens if an oil is not suitable for the engine.

Surely the thicker the oil the better!

This isn't always true - even when using a petroleum oil.

Although it is true that heavier viscosity oils (which are generally thought of as being thicker) will hold up better under heavy loads and high temperatures, this doesn't necessarily make them a better choice for all applications.

On many newer vehicles only 0w-40, 5w40 or 10w40 engine oils are recommended by the manufacturer. If you choose to use a higher viscosity oil than what is recommended, at the very least you are likely to reduce performance of the engine. Fuel economy will likely go down and engine performance will drop.

In the winter months it is highly recommended that you not use a heavier grade oil than what is recommended by the manufacturer. In cold start conditions you could very well be causing more engine wear than when using a lighter viscosity oil.

In the summer months, going to a heavier grade is less of an issue, but there are still some things to be aware of.

Moving one grade up from the recommended viscosity is not likely to cause any problems (say from a 10w40 to a 10w50 oil). The differences in pumping and flow resitance will be slight. Although, efficiency of the engine will decrease, the oil will likely still flow adequately through the engine to maintain proper protection. However, it will not likely protect any better than the lighter weight oil recommended by the manufacturer.

Moving two grades up from the recommended viscosity (say 10w40 to 10w-60) is a little more extreme and could cause long term engine damage if not short term. Although the oil will still probably flow ok through the engine, it is a heavier visocosity oil. As such it will be more difficult to pump the oil through the engine.

More friction will be present than with a lighter viscosity oil. More friction means more heat. In other words, by going to a thicker oil in the summer months, you may actually be causing more heat build-up within the engine. You'll still be providing adequate protection from metal to metal contact in the engine by going with a high viscosity, but the higher viscosity will raise engine temperatures.

In the short run, this is no big deal. However, over the long term, when engine components are run at higher temperatures, they WILL wear out more quickly.

As such, if you intend on keeping the vehicle for awhile, keep this in mind if you're considering using a heavier weight oil than the manufacturer recommends.

The best advice is to is to stay away from viscosity grades that are not mentioned in your owner's manual.

Cheers,

Simon

So - what do you reckon as the most appropriate make and grade for my E30 M3 Sport Evo??

Anyone?  All oppinions welcomed.

Thanks,

Tim,

Congratulations on your M5 - what year?

Do you have the old Service invoices? If so, out of interest, what oil has been put in it?  As you will probably have to top it up, the selling dealer should tell you!

Regards.

STEPHEN B

hi

my 2000 e39 m5 got a new engine fitted under warranty 5 months ago,what oil should i use please?

harvard468 wrote: Timray, The engine modifications were in March 2000 and later S62 engines fitted to the E39 M5.  I think Andygriff's reference to Feb 02 was a typo.  I think he meant Feb 00 as later in the post. I would go for as late an M5 as possible as there is a greater chance that the dealers may have used the correct oil (i.e., not 10w-60) at the services or indeed that the engine hasn't come up to an oil change (15,000 miles or so) yet!!! Whilst writing you may have noticed a letter in November's BMW Car Magazine from an American who has recently bought one of the last E39 M5s new and intends to keep it for along time.  he therefore is changing the oil every 3,000 miles and using 10w-60!!!  I will let Oilman explain why his engine might not last as long as he hopes!! Regards STEPHEN B

Stephen,

Indeed you are correct. My rushed typing has now probably resulted in a few trashed M5 engines !

Just to confirm - Up to 02/2000 Use TWS or Veedol 10w-60 ONLY

Sorry for any confusion,

Andy.

B 7 VP wrote:  Andy, its interesting to see the advised Oils for later Engines, But--Dealers Quote the TWS chapter & Verse--for many Engines--one Oil fits All. WE know of Problems with some S54 Engines, Worldwide--and most prospective purchasers of Say V10 engines, do, NOT wish to Rebuild ,  ALA "Race Teams" every 10 Hours of running .While 3 year Warranties look good, what price the Extended warranty ?????? after this time.

It's interesting that Castrol print "Exclusivly for use in BMW M3,M5 and Z8" on the TWS 10w60 bottle, yet this contradicts BMW's own information relating to oils. For example, all Z8's have the later version of the S62 Engine as used in post Feb 02 M5's which are NOT compatible with this oil !

Also, TWS is not a listed oil for E30 or E36 M3's. This could mean that it just hasn't been tested for these applications though.

eljockvis wrote: hi my 2000 e39 m5 got a new engine fitted under warranty 5 months ago,what oil should i use please?

Many choices availible to you, but not TWS.

hi and thanks

i have spoken to loads of bmw dealerships today and they tell me

10w 60 tws for all m5 e39!,so i phone bmw head office and they

tell me tws 10w 60 1999-2001 and slx 0w30 for 2002 - 03 cars!

why should i pay £250 for my oil inspection when they put in 10w-60 tws when its the wrong oil?

almost all uk bmw dealers dont know they are putting the wrong stuff in peoples e39 m5s!

how about castrol rs 0w 40? is that acceptable for a 03 bmw m5 e39

engine? is it possible to tell the age of the engine by its number?

The BMW technical bulletins are quite clear if only dealers would read them!!

Up to Feb 2000 build date the S62 (E39 M5) engines are designed for Castrol TWS 10w-60.  From March 2000 on the engines are designed to use a BMW approved longlife oil (LL-01) such as Castrol SLX 0w-30, or Fuchs Titan Supersyn 0w-30 which are suitable for extended (up to 15,000 mile) drain intervals.

If a dealer doesn't tell you this he wants his franchise removing!!!

Of course there are other excellent approved oils such as the Ester-based Silkolene 5w-40 which some people like as the engine runs slightly quieter but won't quite give the same cold start protection, and not being long-life oil you will need to change every 7,500 miles or so.

Oilman on the Technical Forum gives excellent advice and supplies Club members very reasonably.

Hope this helps.

STEPHEN B

thanks

i will drain the 10w 60 and fill with slx 0w 60 asap

,the new engine has done about 6000 miles now with 10w 60 in  it!

do you think any damage will have been done yet?

maybee in the winter would have been more of a problem with 10w 60?

It's 0w-30, 5w-30, 0w-40 or 5w-40 that you need.

Cheers, Simon

eljockvis wrote: thanks i will drain the 10w 60 and fill with slx 0w 60 asap ,the new engine has done about 6000 miles now with 10w 60 in  it! do you think any damage will have been done yet? maybee in the winter would have been more of a problem with 10w 60?

I don't think you will have done any harm yet, but I would tell the dealer who installed the engine that he put the wrong oil in it and will he change it and guarantee any damage which results from having used the wrong oil!!

It should have had an oil change at 1250 miles.  Did it??

Regards

STEPHEN B

If he denies he is wrong, report him to BMW GB

hi

the engine oil was changed after 2000 miles i was told to keep the revs under 4000rpm for this period!, then they filled the engine with 10w60,its on the invoice,when the engine was just fitted it had a totaly clear oil in it, not the yellow colour of the tws 10w 60,i thought that this was a special oil for running the engine in !

i spoke to my local dealer today and the service advisor would not believe what i was telling him! even after i told him that bmw customer service advisor confirmed the fact that the 2003 s62 engine should have castrol slx 0w 30, i phoned about 8 other dealers around the country and they have no clue about this either!  only one dealer in scotland did!

these engines are £9750 plus vat and then 100 quid an hour labour!

you would think something so simple would be well documented eh!!

What I find so strange is why they ignore what is written in the handbook.

Maybe they can't read!

I've been saying this for so long that I'm almost bored of doing so but "check your handbooks" then go to the Dealer and refer them to it plus the BMW Service Bulletins on oil.

Or just check with me, I have the correct data and can access it at any time - Just ask.

Cheers

Simon

I spoke to my local dealer again today and they are now saying BMW approves both types of oil the 0w30 and 10w60 for my car.  they are not willing to change the oil free of charge. I then spoke to BMW customer services and they were as much help as a kick up the **** today, no mention of the 0w30, they just said if it's a s62 engine, then 10w60 is fine.

Don't know what else I can do.

Unless I can get a letter from BMW stating that it's the only kind of oil to use, my dealer is going to do nothing about it (******s)

thanks anyway

Stu

sxl88 wrote: I spoke to my local dealer again today and they are now saying BMW approves both types of oil the 0w30 and 10w60 for my car.  they are not willing to change the oil free of charge. I then spoke to BMW customer services and they were as much help as a kick up the **** today, no mention of the 0w30, they just said if it's a s62 engine, then 10w60 is fine. Don't know what else I can do. Unless I can get a letter from BMW stating that it's the only kind of oil to use, my dealer is going to do nothing about it (******s) thanks anyway   Stu

Stu,

I have never heard of both being recomended, in fact that is daft as there these two grade are poles apart.

I have a statement from BMW stating specifically what oils are to be used and for what engine, I will try and digg it out.

Cheers

Simon.

sxl88 wrote: I spoke to my local dealer again today and they are now saying BMW approves both types of oil the 0w30 and 10w60 for my car.  they are not willing to change the oil free of charge. I then spoke to BMW customer services and they were as much help as a kick up the **** today, no mention of the 0w30, they just said if it's a s62 engine, then 10w60 is fine. Don't know what else I can do. Unless I can get a letter from BMW stating that it's the only kind of oil to use, my dealer is going to do nothing about it (******s) thanks anyway   Stu

Stu,

Refer your dealer to Technical Bulletin No: GB-11-001-04 issued on 03/11/2004 by Jef Abbott after my nagging him that his dealers were taking no notice of earlier Bulletins issued on 26/03/2001 by Steve Nicolson.

This later Bulletin makes it quite clear that Longlife LL-01 oil (Castrol SLX is the only one most dealers have) is specified for S62/E39 from 02/2000 onwards.  It asks the dealers to ensure that they "regularly consult the Operating Fluids manual on TIS for up to date information on specified operating fluids".

BMW GB are very cagey about saying that 10-60 is "wrong" - it might lead to a series of warranty cases.  However I believe the piston rings and big-end shells were modified from 03/2000 onwards to allow the use of the lighter extended drain interval oil.

Castrol TWS is NOT LL-01 approved so how can a dealer possibly say it should be used in cars with extended drain intervals. It will need to be changed every 7,500 miles or so; it will not last for 15,000.

Ring Jef Abbott at BMW GB Technical services and insist on him clarifying to the dealer for you.  They really should agree to drain the 10-60 and put the CORRECT oil in!!

Oilman should also give you some help - I hope he agrees with what I have said.

Good luck.

STEPHEN B

Spot on Stephen, the bulletin you refer to is very clear in it's wording and BMW are aware that incorrect advice may have been given or at least the correct advice was misunderstood or not read.

Look at your manual, it doesn't mention 10w-60!

The difference between sae 60 and sae 30 is huge!

Sae 30 is 11cst at 100degC and sae 60 is 24cst at 100degC, that's more than twice the recommended thickness! This is important as an oil this thick in the wrong application causes friction, heat and wear plus wastes BHP and increases fuel consumption.

Cheers

Simon

Stu,

There you have heard it from the expert.

Note the key words -  "BMW are aware that incorrect advice may have been given or at least the correct advice was misunderstood or not read."

Don't let the Dealer get away with it!

STEPHEN B

Good news!

I tried to call Jeff Abbott today but he is on his hols, so I spoke to another technical adviser, Alex Mead.  Explained the situation to him mentioning the bulletin that was issued, within an hour head of BMW customer services rang me back to confirm that the wrong oil has been put into my car and that they instructed wollaston BMW head of aftersales to ring me back to rectify the matter, result.

However he got one someone else to ring to say there was some miscommunication between service advisers and that they were willing to do the oil change free of charge but I was told ''by mistake'' in very definite terms I had to pay for the oil change.   I guess it would kill them to admit that they were wrong.  I have never liked dealing with BMW service advisers but a kick up the a*** from BMW UK has given me the result I wanted.

Thanks for all help I have received.

Great news!

What a complete bunch of idiots and there are literally thousands of M3's and M5's out there on 10w-60 erroneously! It's a mess!!

If you want advice come to my stand at Gaydon on sunday and I'll show you the paperwork and supply you with the correct oil

I'm there to help Members

Cheers

Simon

Simon,

Far be it for me to challenge you on anything, but I have a feeling the current E46 M3 is still supposed to use 10w-60.........???  Can't think it's a good thing though - they have had a lot of problems with big-end shell recalls!

Regards

STEPHEN B

And E46 M3 oil changes are based over approx 15000 mile intervals !  What do you think Oilman ?

Is TWS definatly not LL or could it be that it's just not marketed as such ? I know BMW do not list it as a Long Life oil in their operating fluids manual.

Andy,

BMW TIS dated 17/07/04 stated that 10w60 TWS Motorsport should be used in all E46 S54 (M3) engines, and E39 S62 (M5) up to 02/2000.  Maybe the recommendation changed with the newer M3s since July 2004, especially if they are working on an extended oil drain period which TWS is not approved for - probably, as I understand it, because it is not a true synthetic oil - but "hydrocracked"!!!

Oilman may expand on this!

Regards

STEPHEN B

So, who's got a current E46 and can look in the handbook.

Take a look and post it here if you can.

My book says 0w-30, 5w-30, 0w-40, 5w-40 LL01 although I'm more than happy to be corrected by the handbook information as I'd rather follow this than what the Dealers say!

Cheers

Simon

Me again

Even though me dealer is now willing to change the oil free of charge, I am concerned about the state of my engine.  After all it has been running on the wrong oil for over 10 months.  I have spoken to BMW Uk technical services about my concern and I am waiting for their reply, I will post their response when I receive it.

The more I think about it, the more it p*sses me off, why should I be made  to pay for my dealers imcompetence and negligence.

My main concern is the difference between an sae 60 and an sae 30 in viscosity throughout the temperature range

If the M5 is set up to run on an sae 30 (tolerances and design elements) then an sae 60 is totally wrong!

The centistoke viscosities at operating temps are completely different.

Visc.............10degC......20degC.......40degC.......60deg C........100degC.......120degC

SAE30...........1600..........315............95............. 38.5............11................7.....

SAE60...........7865.........1218...........303............1 05.............24...............14....

I can only conclude that Dealers know about servicing cars but didly squat about oils and their properties.

Cheers

Simon

Got my oil changed today.  The killer is they are still saying that the car can both use 10w60 and 0w30. 

I think deep down they know it's bull what they are saying, sheer arrogance stops them admitting they were wrong or else why would they change my oil for free if like they said it could use one or the other. 

I am still waiting to hear back from BMW UK regarding any potential damage that may have occurred in the 10 months of using the wrong oil though.  It will interesting to hear what the offical line on this will be.

If it can use both (and that's just bull**** IMHO) than I'd love to know why they changed it for the correct one ;)

Cheers

Simon

guess what now?

after i got home from getting the oil changed to 0-30 slx

i checked the level and it was way above the max on the dipstick,so

i had to drain 1 liter of oil in order to reach the maximum level !

how bad is that for the engine?

Not good at all.  Your dealer is excelling himself in incompetence. It can't be that difficult to measure 6.5 litres of oil and pouring into the filling tube!!

What probably happened though is they didn't want to bother changing the filter as well and so left the old one in - it contains probably at least 0.5 litres of oil itself!

I'm sure BMW GB ought to be made aware of their dealers' failings.

yea i will have to report them for that one!

over 1 liter above the max level,i did 30 miles like this!

what damage can occur from this type of stupidity?

i thought they would at least change the filter,ive now got

0w 30 with 10w 60 cocktail! no wonder bmw have to supply

new engines to there customers,i just feel sorry for those m5 owners who dont have a bmw warranty!

I should say the oil pressure would be a little too high.

John

I think BMW should look harder into the reasons for engine failures and they may find that Dealer incompetance is a major factor.

An oil that is too thick can cause damage long term through additional friction, heat and wear but in the short term the worst case scenario is cavitation causing oil starvation on start-up.

The vanos problems could very well be caused by temporary oil starvation as the thicker oil takes longer to circulate around the engine and oil pressures being too high at temperature.

These threads sadden me and although I'm sure there are some perfectly competant Dealers out there, unfortunately there are too many that just don't read or understand BMW's technical bulletins.

I can only say once again:

"Your handbook is an important document and is very specific about the correct viscosity oil for your car, READ IT!"

If you don't understand it, email me the relevant page and I'll do the work for you.

mailto:sales@opieoils.co.uk - sales@opieoils.co.uk

Cheers

Simon

There for all to heed - wise words from Oilman!

I should have thought BMW GB would go out of their way to ensure their dealers know what they are doing - engine failures are costly not only financially but also in terms of reputation.  I know of several people who have been put off getting an E46 M3 because of the horror stories about big-end shell bearing failures and recalls etc!!

Don't believe all the Dealers tell you - check it accords with your owner's manual.

Regards

STEPHEN B

Sorry to add to the dismay at BMWs seemingly endless ability to actually give a straight answer on the oil for M5s topic....

I have been very concerned about whether I had the right oil in my car since the last service (just prior to when I purchased the car) - I have a 2001 M5 - thus my thoughts are that it should have a BMW LL01 oil - like Castrol SLW 0W30.  I have discovered that it has had TWS put in it by a dealer in the NW.  They are adamant that this is correct.  I checked with BMW GB who confirmed that I was correct and that LL01 must be used.  I spoke to the dealer who were not impressed at all.

I then decided to refer back to BMW GB and spoke to cust services who informed me that whoever told me that LL01 is the right oil should NOT have told me that and had no authority to do so.  I nearly lost it there and then.  This chap was so unhelpful and said that as he wasn't allowed to talk to people like Jeff Abbott, then I certainly wouldn't be able to.....

He said he had to refer it back to the dealer - what a joke....meanwhile what I am meant to do with my car when it's got the wrong oil in it...?

I rang another dealer more local to me - and they insisted that TWS was the right oil....and that wait for it......Castrol RS 0W40 must be used on M5s up to 2000.....

I await the outcome from BMW GB.....how frustrating is this...?

Chris

Chris,

You have my sympathy! On the assumption that you have a post 01/03/2000 build date car,BMW Technical information Supplement (TIS) dated 17/07/04 (as well as several earlier ones!) stated:-

   "10w60 TWS Motorsport should be used in all E46 S54 (M3)   engines, and E39 S62 (M5) up to 02/2000." 

This was followed up by another technical bulletin by Jef Abbott on 03/11/2004, presumably because no-one at BMW dealerships was taking any notice.  It explained that "incorrect guidance is being offered in relation to the correct operating fluids approved for BMW vehicles"!! It referred dealers to the "Operating Fluids manual on TIS and actually quotes the example of the E39 M5!  It states categorically that 10w-60 should be used for vehicles up to 02/2000, and thereafter Longlife-01 (which TWS categorically is not) such as 0w-40. However the only LL-01 oils most dealers have is the Castrol SLX 0w-30 which is also recommended.

I suggest you refer your dealer to his Technical info.  If you check your owners' manual you will find the oils quite clearly specified.

Regards

STEPHEN B

Adam,

If you go back on this thread you will see all the info you need. I cannot believe the main dealers are still not getting it right after over 5 years!!

If you look in your Owner's manual you will see that you need to use a Longlife BMW approved LL-01 oil which will last the extended drain intervals (up to 15,000 miles) which post Feb 2000 cars were designed for - the only LL-01 oils I know are the fully synthetic 0w-30 and 0w-40 as made by Castrol (SLX), Fuchs (Titan Supersyn SL) & Mobil (One) etc. You should not use 10w-60 - it is not an LL-01 oil and will not last between oil changes anyway!!

The info on the Website you mention is correct only for pre March 2000 cars, but you will note in there the key fact about the modification of the piston rings in post Feb 2000 engines.

Refer your dealer to the Technical Bulletins mentioned a few threads ago and see if he still says 10w-60!  If he does avoid him like the plague as he has no idea what he is doing.  Ring a few others! Try Damon Hill for instance - they really know what they are talking about or Birds! What I think confuses the Main Dealers is that the current M3 does use 10w-60!

Hopefully Oilman (the Club resident oil expert) will add his views as I don't pretend to be an expert - just a layman who got fed up with being told different stories and wanted to get to the truth.

Regards

STEPHEN B

Adam,

I'm very surprised at this because last July (2004) when I was getting nowhere I rang Damon Hill and they got it right as did Dick Lovett in Bristol!!

Maybe you got a different Service Agent who didn't bother checking his tech specs!

Regards

STEPHEN B

Hey Guys, all my buddies at the Nuerburgring are using TWS 10-60 in their e39 M5. So are all the E46 M3 guys.

TWS is a real ester based oil (like Motul). That is also why it is a bit more expensive than other oils.

No engine is so special that it needs only 1 particular brand of oil. Check Porsches list of approve doils for new and older models e.g.    It is also more than ok to change the oil before the normal oil change interval comes up if you so desire.  Some things you do not have much ability to control (short of changing oil) -- like acid content -- for this you have oil additive packages. But somethings like fuel content in the engine oil is detected by the ECU.   I have it somewhere in my documentation for MSSxx ECUs where they specifically talk about fuel in oil detection.  Since they are trying to detect this, this should tell you what the importance is?

John

John,

That is interesting. BMW only recommend TWS 10w-60 for their E39 M5s up to Feb 2000 build date (but all M3s). Are your buddies' cars early E39 M5s?  At that time I believe the piston rings and big-end shells were modified;from March 2000 build the recommended oils are 0/5w-30/40 fully synthetic LL-01 oils.

A lot of people like to change their oil more regularly as you say and this can only be good. In this case obviously you don't need to use a long-life oil.

I was not aware that TWS is an ester based synthetic; in fact I was under the impression that it was "hydrocracked" i.e. not a true synthetic oil. Maybe our resident Oilman can comment.

Regards

STEPHEN B

I am aware of BMWs recommendations, and in that recommendation TWS was never EXCLUDED as an oil that might HARM the engine.

changing piston to sidewall clearance is hardly going to be a determining factor whether the oil is harmful or not. They trying to reduce blowby and oil consumption.  But, if you left TWS in there eventhough the oil consumption is down, that will not cause harm.

on race track we are generally interested in keeping oil temperature low, because too high oil temperature is bad for things like rod bearings. when these get damaged, you will see oilP fall (if you have a guage), then oil temperature will rise further and soon you will have a complete bearing failure.

I select an oil because it is good and for my intended use. I am not too religious about it though. I know a little more about engines than what is stated in the owners manual :)  but only a tiny bit.

John

PS: the BMW motorsport bulletins I have referred to TWS

as ester based, not a hydro crack oil.  I will try to post them

later in the day. 

John

There seems to be a little confusion here (not on the recommended oils as this is stated by the BMW TIS and in handbooks, as correctly stated by Stephen B) over quality.

Castrol RS 10w-60 is a hydrocracked (highly refined mineral) oil and not of the best shear stability or quality.

Castrol TWS 10w-60 is a different formulation with higher HTHS numbers and NOACK volatility % due to its synthetic basestocks which are likely to be the minimum poly alpha olefin and at best a pao/ester blend.

The point is that neither 10w-60's are BMW LL oils and never likely to be as they don't meet BMW's criteria viscosity-wise (0w or 5w, sae 30 or 40).

Whilst it can be argued that 10w-60 is traditionally a grade for extreme use (based on the theory that shearing in use will mean an sae 60 will thin to an sae 40 over a couple of thousand miles of hard use) the old school way of thinking does not apply with modern synthetics.

Modern synthetic basestocks are incredibly thermally stable with very small amounts of VI improvers added meaning there is no where to shear back to. (see below explanation)

The biggest problem is the use of an oil that's very thick (as thick as some gear oils) which can mean more friction and heat leading to more engine wear, lower fuel consumption and a lower power output due to oil drag when it's not necessarily required.

Stepping up the viscosity from sae 30 or 40 to sae 60 is only warranted if oil temperatures are excessive (above 120degC) and then an sae 50 (proper synthetic race one) will adequately handle up to around 145degC for prolonged periods.

Granted in some models 10w-60 is required due to design but not for all applications by any means.

Why do oils lose viscosity with use?

Viscosity Index Improvers.

An oils viscosity will decrease as the engine temperature rises. Viscosity Index Improvers are added to reduce this thinning. They are a key addative in the production of multigrade oils.

VI Improvers are heat sensitive long chain, high molecular weight polymers that minimise the viscosity loss of the oil at high temperatures. They work like springs, coiled at low temperatures and uncoiling at high temperatures. This makes the molecules larger (at high temps) which increases internal resistance within the thinning oil. They in effect "fight back" against the viscosity loss in the oil.

"Shearing"

The long chain molecules in VI Improvers are prone to "shearing" with use which reduces their ability to prevent the oil from losing viscosity. This "shearing" occurs when shear stress ruptures the long chain molecules and converts them to shorter, lower weight molecules. The shorter, lower weight molecules offer less resistance to flow and their ability to maintain viscosity is reduced.

This shearing not only reduces the viscosity of the oil but can cause piston ring sticking (due to deposits), increased oil consumption and increased engine wear.

Like basestock quality, VI Improvers also vary in quality. As with many items the more you pay, the better the finished article and more expensive, usually synthetic oils are likely to incorporate better VI improvers. All other things being equal the less VI improver an oil contains, the better it will stay in grade by resisting viscosity loss. 

Which oils require more VI Improvers?

There are two scenarios where large amounts of these polymers are required as a rule.

Firstly in "wide viscosity span" multigrades. By this I mean that the difference between the lower "W" number and the higher number is large for example 5w-50 (diff 45) and 10w-60 (diff 50) are what is termed as "wide viscosity span" oils.

Narrow viscosity oils like 0w-30 (diff 30) or 5w-40 (diff 35) require far less VI Improvers and therefore are less prone to "shearing".

Secondly, mineral and hydrocracked (petroleum synthetic oils) require

more VI Improvers than proper PAO/Ester (Group IV or V) synthetic oils

as they have a higher inherent VI to begin with, this is due to

differences in the molecular straucture of the synthetic base oils

compared to mineral oils

It is a fact that many synthetics require significantly less VI Improver to work as a multigrade and are therefore less prone to viscosty loss by shearing.

Hope this helps,

Regards

Simon

John,

I am very interested in your comments, particularly as they are based on track experience which after all is when the engines are really under pressure!

Surely though, if you use a high viscosity oil like a 60, it will generate MORE heat not less, as more energy is required to circulate it? And it will also lubricate less well creating more friction etc... I can understand though that if you are generating very high engine temperatures you may neeed an oil of higher viscosity to maintain required lubricating requirements at that temperature. However Oilman's comments on modern synthetics indicate that they don't get degenerate at high temperatures.

Racing car engines though I believe run on amazingly thin oil!

Oilman has cleared up my misunderstanding - I had assumed RS 10w-60 was the retail version of TWS. Obviously not so.

On your other point, as you state, I believe BMW don't exclude TWS for post Feb 2000 M5s; they just don't recommend it.

I think your input to this thread will be of great interest to other owners. Thanks.

Regards

STEPHEN B

When it comes to oil discussions it can become religious. If the purpose of this discussion is to go in circles, then Im not interested, simply because these usually end up no where. I put my money where my mouth is and build up engines and track them. I do many things that are not recommended in your owners manual that you may or may not balk at, e.g. engine break in happens in less than a few hundred km.  I rev an engine over 8000 rpm with less than 100 km on the engine.  I also drop bottom ends to check the condition of rod bearings and swap new (motorsport) ones in even though the old ones optically apear in very good condition. So I am not driving the car and wondering what is going on in the bottom end without any sort of feedback.

On TWS:  it is a polar oil. AFAIK, only ester oils are polar.  It is a mistake to read too much into the "60" part of the 10w-60 designation.  This oil is NOT a 60 weight oil. It is based on a 10 weight oil. It just BEHAVES at 100C like a 60W oil.  This is key to understand.

So, you read a bit of physics and think: oh it is a 60 viscosity oil and therefore there is more internal molecular friction which must raise the oil temperature.  It doesnt work like that, nor is this seen in practice. You may trust me when I say that the engine itself under whatever operating conditions has far more effect on the oil temperature than the molecular friction in the oil!  In fact, if your engine is running too high oil temperature under track conditions, there is no oil that you can simply put it in it to lower the engine temperature any significant amount. You need hardware modifications to accomplish this. Im assuming a healthy engine, if you are getting metal to metal contact, then it is a non issue and you will not be driving for long under track conditions.

I would be concerned to run an engine over 120C on the track for sustained periods.  BMW Motorsport says that 125C is MAXIMUM engine oil temperature. Oil break down is obviously much higher than this temperature.  Can you get away with higher oil temp? yes you can, but the wear and potential for failure goes up.

Motorsport (racing division) does quite extensive modifications to increase cooling to lower both oil and water temperatures.  E.g. extra radiators, ducting and lower T-stat opening points (for lower water temperatures) and larger oil coolers and oil-water heat exchangers to keep oil temperature down. Oil coolers are run without bypass valves to eliminate any lag time -- they cool maximumm at all times as long as the car is moving. To get maximum power it is ideal to run the engine around 80 C water and 80-90C oil -- on a race engine. On a street engine we might rather see 90-100C oil temps as ideal. Just to make sure the oil gets hot enough to burn off things like fuel in the oil. On a race engine, the oil gets dumped, so fuel contamination in the oil is a non issue. On street engines it is enough of an issue that the ECU tries to determine (MSS62 and MSS54 ecus e.g.) the fuel content in the oil.  For similar reasons, when an engine has more blowby this is something that degrades the oil over time. When crank case gases are recirculated into the intake tract, this also causes problems with reduction of octane (by lowering it), increasing its likely hood (if significant) to knock -- therefore the ECU would retard its timing.  When you run tighter piston-wall clearances or have a better ring-wall seal (due to better rings, better run-in, or change of hone pattern) you usually get lower blowby.

My friends at the N'ring all use TWS. Does this mean this is the best oil to use? is it the only oil to use? of course not. But, it provides atleast practical experience that the oil is not bad, and this was my primary point.  If I go to the track, Im pretty sure Id follow their lead. But I also open the engine up from time to time to check things. I dont believe that there is any MAGIC involved.

As far as RS 10W-60 and hydro cracked oil -- I really have no comment. I was only trying to comment on TWS.

If you want to run a "long life" oil then go ahead, BMW approved it so there is no reason to second guess them right?

John

http://www.john.gmstech.de/oil/tws10w_60.pdf - http://www.john.gmstech.de/oil/tws10w_60.pdf

here is an original motorsport release to TWS oil. it is in German, if you need any help translating just ask. I had a few other docs on this, just looking  (I have an entire directory full of factory documents in pdf form for the S62 / e39 M5 in general -- training and service manuals, trouble shooting, engine guides, ecu documentation etc. I just have to find the right doc as BMW does give their files meaningful names)

John

still looking... :)

but while looking I saw a few other things, Ill post here too:

-- the GTR was also using TWS in the latest 24h race at Ring. This oil also in GT3.

-- on race engine be VERY careful when making any assumptions why they may or may not use a light(er) viscosity oil.

-- on a race engine, you dont need a huge additive package which is what "long life oils" have. additive packages do nothing for your bearings, they just stabilize the oil. So this might be a consideration for someone that intends to run WOT for extended periods on track. If you are an environmentalist, perhaps it is important to you to keep the oil in service as long as possible. If you are primarily interested in your engine, changing oil based on your (track) use may have priority.

anecdote: in the late DTM days, BMW motorsport reached rpms up to 10500 rpm. They switched to a lower viscosity oil, I dont know the type or the rating but I was told by BMW motorsport this was so. It was probably a special formulation not available to the mass market. If it is of real interest, I can ask on tuesday at Motorsport the exact spec just so we know. The reason this came up was because I was investigating differences in 2 different DTM cranks.  One had 1 oil supply per rod journal and the other crank had 2 supplies per rod journal.

This might be obvious to some of you guys but not to all, and since its important, let me explain: when we go up in the revs we like to ensure high oil pressures. The usual rule of thumb is about 1 bar per 1k rpm. So at 8k rpm that would mean 8 bar oilP! This is not really easy to achieve and requires modification of the oil pump (we are talking about a wet sump engine). Obviously, this also cost a bit more loss which you can add to your over all power loss budget for your engine. According to BMW research papers, increasing oil pressure up to about 8 bar sill makes sense, but after that it does not make sense to further increase oilP. IOW, even with 12 bar oilP you could not protect your engines from rod bearing damage at very high rpm; you have passed the point of diminishing returns.  The solution to this problem is to increase the number of oil supply passages at the bearings, and it can not be done in just any fashion (various configurations are possible, not all effective).  BMW Motorsport did exactly this on the late DTM cranks, and when this happened they no longer required such high oil pressures nor high viscosity because they have increased the fluid flow or lubricity.  This little change made the price of the crank jump from 2000 euro to about 3500 euro :)

John

John,

Very interesting stuff! Many thanks for taking the trouble to write in such detail.  I am sure it will be of great interest to those members who know a bit more about engines than I do.

A lot of us I am sure just follow the manuals and recommendations, but try to pick up a bit of knowledge on the way!  I suppose all manufacturers, BMW included, have to "idiot-proof" the cars for the masses as far as possible to cover all variety of good and bad driving conditions; if you have the knowledge, skill, and experience you can follow your own path and do what's best for your engine under the conditions you will be using it.

I am sure there will always be debates about oils; but there does seem to be consensus about the benefits of high quality synthetics, especially ester-based ones.

I should be very interested in the information you referred to about the E39 M5 and the S62 engine if you are able to find it or give me the links - always trying to learn!

Regards

STEPHEN B

harvard468 wrote: Adam, I'm very surprised at this because last July (2004) when I was getting nowhere I rang Damon Hill and they got it right as did Dick Lovett in Bristol!! Maybe you got a different Service Agent who didn't bother checking his tech specs! Regards STEPHEN B

Stephen

I contacted Damon Hill on Friday, after questioning the 10-60 the chap I spoke to did go and check it out, he phoned me back as good as gold and confirmed that the 10-60 is not the correct oil. As you say perhaps its down to different service agents.

At least I now know which is the correct oil and I know that Damon Hill also know - its a relief !!!

Thanks again !!!

hi all

can i take my own oil into bmw when they do my inspection 1?

i have 8L of castrol rs 0w 40, saves paying them to put the wrong oil

in my car again!

Yep, your free to take your own oil.

Cheers

Simon.

Yes!!!  Unless they had misfilled it with TWS at the last oil change in which case it won't make any difference!  Look in your manual!

Stephen B.

10w-60 is for cars up to 02/2000 only.

Regards

Simon

There is nothing wrong with using TWS, that is not a "miss-fill".

It is the superior oil.  All the M5 owners at the Ring are running it

as well as people who run M5 engine in race cars.

I dont know what is so difficult to understand, there are no

engineering reasons that speak against TWS.

John

It is not the correct oil according to the BMW TIS.

Cheers

Simon

yes it is.  call BMW motorsport and ask.

John

also use your head a little. look at the oil specs.

there is also nothing special about an s62 engine compared

to say and S54 engine to require a low weight oil.

John

John,

I am not taking any technical issue at all with you as you clearly know much more than I do. I only make the point that BMW's own technical bulletins are clear that they recommend TWS only up to Feb 2000 S62 engine builds and then LL-01 0/5w-30/40 thereafter. Owners' manuals are equally clear.  The issue is that many service departments don't read the technical bulletins and therefore fill with oil that is not the recommended one for that car especially when the service indicators don't tell you an oil change is due for about 15,000  miles!!

I acknowledge that this is for the mass market consumer, and presumably also for warranty reasons.  The knowledgeable enthusiast will always have the ability to use what he feels and knows from experience is the most appropriate oil for his car for his purpose - as do you.  I am all for this.

STEPHEN B

im no expert on this subject but when i told bmw gb that my 2003

s62 engine had 10w60 in it they told my dealer to change the oil free of charge to 0w30/40 and they did!,so there must be some kind of issue no?

The issue is the viscosity that the design requires in stock road cars.

At 100degC oil temps they are as follows:

SAE 30 = 11cst

SAE 40 = 14cst

SAE 60 = 24cst

If the car requires sae 30 or 40 and an sae 60 is used there are several consequences that can occurr.

Poorer fuel consumption.

More viscous drag and therefore lower bhp.

More friction, heat and wear.

The risk of air entrainment if oil temps are too low, causing slugs of air to be fed to bearings. 

An sae 60 would need to run an oil temperature of around 140degC to be the same viscosity as an sae 30 at 100degC and around 128degC to be the same viscosity as an sae 40 at 100degC.

At an oil temperature of 90degC the oils would be these viscosities

SAE 60 = 30cst

SAE 40 = 16cst

SAE 30 = 12cst

It's your car, use what you like but unless sae 60 is specified or there is a good technical reason (high oil temperatures being the logical one) I would not use it personally.

Cheers

Simon

There is no issue. there are people who theorize a lot though :)

if you asked what BMW motorsport would use in a racing situation

youll get a different answer. Im only telling you what the guys in germany use. you dont have to follow that advice and it does not matter to me. BTW, I build 30K engines, so I do know a bit about this.

John

PS:  a TWS 10w60  is a 10W base oil.  it only acts like a 60 W

oil at 100C.  go buy a 1L  and see how thin it is yourself.

John

hey chaps

i have 8 liters of castrol rs 0w 40 synth in my shed

is this ok for an 03 s62 v8?

Absolutely,

Its LL01 approved.

Cheers

Simon.