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///Mister_G 
Really Senior Member I 
Joined: 01-August-2005 Location: Coventry, UK Status: Offline Points: 343 |
 Posted: 16-January-2006 at 07:29 |
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Very good points above. But surely by the notion that engines in the E36 moved 'out of line' with previous M cars... then all M cars since are 'not' official. You lot make me laugh. M is what it is, not just what is used to be. |
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Avus E36 M3.0
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Phil-C
Really Senior Member II 
Ex E30 M3 owner... Joined: 06-May-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 707 |
Posted: 16-January-2006 at 07:35 |
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I re-read my post and it reads as if I am on the 'E30 is the only real M car, ever, fact, and not including convertables either' but I'm not.
It's the exception to the 'M' rule and possibly the BFO that spawned the popularity of the 'M' pedigree. |
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Drew540i
Really Senior Member II
Available from all good newsagents! Joined: 15-August-2005 Location: The Mansfield Massive Status: Offline Points: 632 |
Posted: 16-January-2006 at 08:09 |
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Jonners - if you were right, I would agree with you.
What you are saying is that because only the M3 E30 was intended to be a race car, that's the only one that matters. That's just silly, come on! Of all the Motorsport BMW saloons made, only ONE has ever been a race car - that's the E30 M3. All the rest were road cars and you can say what you like but the E36 M3 was designed by BMW Motorsport both as something to sell AND to go racing - and race it certainly did, unlike any M5 or M635CSi. It's engine was designed by Motorsport and shares absolutely nothing with any other BMW engine. It's a special engine alright, 100 bhp per litre naturally aspirated on 100 octane which no other road going BMW engine did, M badged or otherwise. The M1 was intended to be both a road car and a racer but had the rug pulled from under it. BMW tried to compete with Ferrari and lost comprehensively. The reason the 'bloodline'  ended with the
E30 M3 finished is simply because the engine and the design was out of date, finished. That's why a 3.2 litre M3 gives 321 bhp and the 3.8 M5 340 brake. That's also why BMW Motorsport developed the M42 318iS engine into the S42 as a replacement for the old stuff in racing. It's newer and it worked better, end of story! The M635CSi was never raced by BMW or anybody else. The FIA never homologated it as too few were built to qualify as a production car. The V12 XJS and the 635CSi were volume production cars though. The car in the pic is a 12 valve 635CSi racer that was campaigned by teams like Schnitzer and the race engine gave about 280 bhp. The 635CSi was a good racer that often beat the Jags but come 1986, the M3 was here and BMW concentrated on that instead. 530i - the first ever Motorsport road car. Motorsport built a few for customers in 1974-5 combining a 525 E12 shell with all the running gear from the 3.0 CSL. This later became the first E12 M535i of course. To be really pedantic you could argue that the CSL was their first car but Alpina and Schnitzer did a lot of development on those. 318iS saloon. BMW built a few in 1994 to homologate the 16 valve S42 engine and the four door shell. It was reintroduced in Britain as a limited edition in 1997 but only the original 1994 car is a proper BMW Motorsport car - as tenuous as that link may be, it is part of Motorsport's history. Oh, and the 850CSi. I need to come up for air!  Edited by Drew540i |
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Jonners
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 23-September-2003 Status: Offline Points: 601 |
Posted: 16-January-2006 at 09:22 |
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Drew - good post - agree with all of that, and pleased someone has corrected the point about m635's never racing
perhaps I'm at fault here because no matter how many times i say it the message doesn't get through... i never said (i hope) anything like the e30 is the only m3 that matters because it's the only one built to go racing... ...call me pretentious for using the word 'bloodline' but something like that came to an end when M cars went a bit more mass market... ...that's all that concerns me - the older m cars excite me because they are cars with a hard edge from a period when cars were, in my (admittedly rose tinted) view more interesting the market has changed and so have the cars - rightly so and mostly for the better for the mass majority of buyers but in my mind it's a shame that the badge now means something different - as it undoubtedly does whatever you all say... let's avoid the vehicle to vehicle comparisons because it gets us nowhwere... ...I know it would be fair to accuse me of romantic misty eyed nostalgia - but when I look at the badge engineering going on today I do dream of times when 'M', 'RS', 'AMG' or even just 'gti' really meant something we could have a similar debate over mk1 or mk2 golf gti as the issues are very similar some cars create the mould and subsequently evryone spends hours justifying why their successors are just as good rather than saying they're different but it's usually the essential characteristics that made the original ground breaking that are the first to be diluted and no amount of glossy marketing from the manufacturer should pull the wool over our eyes this is why the quote that started this thread is so refreshing - it confirms that calling the e36 m3 an 'M' was actually a bit cynical - nothing wrong with that, of course, because bmw want to sell cars and the sole function of the m badge is to sell cars rather than to please me but let's not be blind to why the e36 m3 was badged an 'm' if exactly the same car had been badged a csl we wouldn't be having this debate, but the car itself would still be better than the e30 m3 in a number of areas finally i repeat in triplicate and will cc ken livingstone if necessary i am not saying the e36 m3 is no good or that the e30 m3 is better pass the pork scratchings.... |
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Drew540i
Really Senior Member II
Available from all good newsagents! Joined: 15-August-2005 Location: The Mansfield Massive Status: Offline Points: 632 |
Posted: 16-January-2006 at 10:02 |
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I do understand exactly what you are saying - but I
don't agree with you 100% I guess we could divide BMW M into two bits - the one that made (makes) all the great racing cars and the other that made great road cars. The E30 and E36 M3's were perhaps the only ones that had feet in both camps, cars the BMW themselves supported in competition. But racing is just a side issue and a marketing tool to promote the road cars. Cynical marketing? That's the M535i E28 which was a bodykit on a stock 535i. They didn't even alter the wheels or the suspension. That's also the USA market E36 M3 which in fact used the standard M50 non vanos head to give 240 bhp. If BMW wanted to merely make a fast E36, they would have made this 240 bhp car (250 plus without USA smog crap) for everyone and it would have sold well as a nice fast E36. The fact that Motorsport (i.e Paul Rosche and team) designed and built a special engine (and gearbox, brakes and suspension) just for one model means that it's no marketing special but a special car into which they put a lot of thought and effort. An E36 with 911 performance deserves its M badge, no question. And AMG still build bonkers Merc road cars and some great racing tools so nothing's changed there! |
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M3PSM
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 27-May-2003 Location: Tropical Essex Status: Offline Points: 451 |
Posted: 16-January-2006 at 14:46 |
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Phew!
I've been standing with a screwdriver at the M3 badge waiting to see if the car was worthy of wearing it or not. Looks like I'm safe
Excellent thread though. Learnt loads about the car's history and more about those old left hookers ;) Edited by M3PSM |
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Drive it like you stole it!
___________________________ 1995 3.0 E36 Coupe 1989 E30 325 Touring 1992 Yamaha TDM 850 www.myallracing.co.uk |
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Pooky
Senior Member II 
Joined: 23-May-2005 Location: Coventry Status: Offline Points: 205 |
Posted: 16-January-2006 at 17:29 |
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Might upgrade my car with some choice genuine motorsport heritage MPower stuff on ebay: No one can question my car with this kit fitted.
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor 
Joined: 27-August-2003 Location: Lost somewhere in time... Status: Offline Points: 6484 |
Posted: 17-January-2006 at 04:42 |
lol It's amazing just how much sh*t there is like that on ebay |
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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Jonners
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 23-September-2003 Status: Offline Points: 601 |
Posted: 17-January-2006 at 06:48 |
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yep - that sort of tat is truly offensive and does a decent car no favours when fitted
this has been a good thread and very informative - don't mind admitting that I've learnt a fair bit about the e36 m3 and Drew has made a few killer points that have changed my mind about the car in particular, the fact that the euro spec machines went further than the US versions, in true 'M' fashion of old (M655 engine, e30 M3 gearbox etc), does add a lot of weight to the fact that BMW were building a special vehicle rather than a badged up hairdressers' car (sorry!) so my mind has been changed about the car... I think I will always be a follower of the earlier cars but am tempted to take a look at an e36 m3 now, just out of interest.... One daft question - I have always absolutely LOVEd the truly fantastic noise my Dad's M635 makes on full chat - is the e36 m3 comparable??? if so I'm in danger of becoming a true believer... BUT i still think there was a teeny weeny change of direction...... Edited by Jonners |
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Pooky
Senior Member II
Joined: 23-May-2005 Location: Coventry Status: Offline Points: 205 |
Posted: 17-January-2006 at 13:27 |
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It sounds like this, neeeooooooooooow |
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Robbie Bradford
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 16-July-2004 Location: Co. Laois, Ireland. Status: Offline Points: 2124 |
Posted: 17-January-2006 at 15:29 |
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Can't beat the sound of the straight 6 IMO. So hit me with music, sweet music......!
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Jonners
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 23-September-2003 Status: Offline Points: 601 |
Posted: 18-January-2006 at 05:03 |
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hmmm - that does sound nice but hasn't got as much 'bottom' as the m635....
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foxworth
Groupie 
Joined: 03-January-2006 Location: London, England Status: Offline Points: 89 |
Posted: 18-January-2006 at 06:05 |
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Awesome intake noise!! Love the sound of the S50/52 No substitute for a V8 though http://www.savefile.com/files/7228471 http://www.savefile.com/files/8766917
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E36 M3 officially not really an M-car
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Pooky wrote:
i do miss the noise....