Success In a City Centre--near You ?????

I'm with Horsetan, Monster Raving Looney party about as viable as any, think Blair may have done himself and the Labour party enough damage so it'll be hopelessly split.

Since they stabbed maggie in back no-one takes Conservatives seriously, and what are they calling LibDem's this week? Any other country they'dve been a coup d'etat by now!

spokey wrote: Peter Fenwick wrote: However, the contries that the goverment provides aid money too are hardly in competition with us. The money is used to stop people starving, like in Africa, and to stop people dying due to having to drink dirty water etc. I am certainly not aware of them funding any of our competitors and even if getting these countries back on their feet again does mean they may at some point in the future be in a position to compete, well I don't care. I'd rather that happened than we just left them to die. Gordon Brown's last visit to Africa was not to promote the use of our tax money to feed the starving, nor to purify the water, but to fund their secondary (not primary!) education departments so that, in his words, "they could become more competitive on world markets". And as I said before, even the noble aims of feeding the starving and purifying their water are rarely best served by forking over large amounts of the folding stuff. And even less so when it's one government handing it over to another.

Nothing wrong with helping to educate people from other countries. Education is how you get these people to point where they can start to help themselves more. Just because money isn't the whole solution doesn't mean we shouldn't give it. After all we know that simply giving these people food and water will not solve the problem long term, for that they need education!

 

Peter Fenwick wrote: You do like to plug Micheal Howard!

Sorry, that wasn't my intention. I was going to use Charles Kennedy as an example, but I couldn't keep a straight enough face.

I'm not convinced charges work at all, they introduced pay parking in Telford centre some time ago, now we have flat £2 charges at the hospitals.

The entrances and exits to the car parks are always jammed as people accidently/deliberately break the machines. It was brought in at the Centre because they put  public and private office buildings around the outside of the ring road with inadequate parking and the workers took over the shopping spaces.

All it achieved was the workers park anywhere they can, on the grass, the pavements - remember the clamped police car, to avoid paying, thus causing more hassle and hazards.

The M6 toll road works well for me, I happily pay to avoid the daily chaos on the main M6, simple volume of traffic causes. There is no easy answer, numbers of cars on the road are going up sharply and the road system on an island canonly be extended so far.

A decent amount of the money ripped off motorists spent on the roads would help, round here if you don't get suspension damage from all the spped bumps you get it from the potholes . Public transport in this area isn't too bad, but in others it's terrible and until it's sorted people will use cars.

Spokey, with respect to the charity coment. I agree with your point about a lot of the money charitys raise being taken up in bureaucracy. This si the way of the world these days. Every organisation, including the one I work for seems to be sinking into a sea of pointless paperwork etc.

However, the contries that the goverment provides aid money too are hardly in competition with us. The money is used to stop people starving, like in Africa, and to stop people dying due to having to drink dirty water etc. I am certainly not aware of them funding any of our competitors and even if getting these countries back on their feet again does mean they may at some point in the future be in a position to compete, well I don't care. I'd rather that happened than we just left them to die.

The NHS is the way it is. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

I take the point about government pensions and a lack of tact, but what could they have done to help other peoples pensions? the pension crisis is down to  people living to long and the fact they are linked to the stock market, which is unpredicable. How many companies still offer final salary pensions. I know mine doesn't offer them to new employees any more. If we want to have inflation linked final salary pensions then we either need to die younger or work for longer, or pay more when we are working. IMO all the government is guilty of there is being tactless.

Peter Fenwick wrote: With respect to the money given in overseas aid, well I disagree. The people receving the aid are imeasurably worse off that us and to suggest otherwise is just plain wrong. This point comes down to a difference of opinion.

I'm terribly sorry, but while I don't have a problem with a bit of charity, I *do* have a huge problem with a government minister spending my tax money to fund up another country to compete against us.

I also disagree with the implementation of most charities: they take money, use it to fund bureaucracies and admin, or advertise on telly and do precious little good. Needless to say, government charity performs this little waste of our money at the most professional level, with all the money being spent on funding "development consultants" and very little on actual improvements in the quality of life. Government aid invariably props up some aspect of the receipient's government, rather than feeding or educating people.

And before you have a go at me, I have actually consulted to a couple of very low-profile, earnest and sincere charities, and this still happens. I know of which I speak. Practically all the actual development funding actually came from the communities the charities were there to help!

Peter Fenwick wrote: People can harp on about how bad the NHS is all they like, but I've never been private and never had a problme with it, nor have any of my family. There will always be examples of bad service and people who have been let down, why? because there are not limitless resoures and it is run by human beings. The other point is how would you feel if you worked for an organisation that was constantly being used as a political football and having to listen to people telling you how crap it is. It certainly wouldn't motivate me.

Well, that's been your experience. I've not had a single (not one!) positive experience of the NHS. I've seen doctors in three different counties, God knows how many hospitals and they have all been utterly useless. The last one was when I woke up at 4AM with chest pains and took myself to hospital worried that I might be having a heart attack. Despite the fact that I was the only person in A&E, and I'd told them I was having severe chest pains, they still took 45 minutes to see me.

And that was just the most recent experience. I really don't want to get into the stuff that really annoyed me, because I'll get banned again.

Peter Fenwick wrote: So politicians get 160K a year. If I was doing that job I'd want that kind of money. How much responsibillity do they have to shoulder? Far more than anyone who uses this forum I'll wager. If you make a mess at work, which everyone does from time to time, is your face splashed accross the front of the paper?  these people might get paid a lot but they have a lot less freedom than the rest of us.

I don't have a problem with them earning a decent wage, it is a job I wouldn't want. But it is a bit insensitive for a Labour government to whack up really nice pensions for MPs and not doing anything useful to address the pensions of anybody else. I think, anyway.

Edited by spokey

B 7 VP wrote: Peter Fenwick---Steady +++  the o'l brains doing overtime. Lets remind you of forgotten Facts,!!!! Your mate Slimy B and the Magicians, warned the Taxpayer and you, that if we wanted a decent NHS, one that we could rely on and trust in our hours/days/years/of Waiting---WE must pay for it.SO--TAX would Have to be increased, and SO it came to pass, +++++£££££.Result is 100% extra Targets with the staff to go with it, SO MANY rules & Regs-you need more staff to keep up with it. THE Increased £££,ss taxpayer is still waiting for the "NEW NHS world" to begin.Nigels Wife, is wondering WHY she gets £5 PH for wiping someones Arze,--when Slime has just said the Min wage is £5-05 an hour(Its election time init)  Slime Brown--wants to Give £10, 000, 000, 000-  THATS £10 billion-- to oversea,s countries-BUT --NOT his Country First-second-++++++++++First you look after yer own.SO-- you see  PF-- LOTS of things ARE viable if you use the Taxpayers wages that Slime said he Must have, on the Subject he lied about. Millions of Taxpayers, went without many things, no holidays-same cars kept-- same house-paying for kids Private Education & Health-Just to save for their Pension-not a drain on the state, just to enjoy the later years in comfort--Like those Slimey politicians on £160K a Year AND inflation proof Pensions--and retire when it Suits THEM.BUT--whats this--The Workers who have planned for their futures are told to WORK till you are 70.So as to save more taxpayers money being paid to Taxpayers.NOT only that, BUT SlimeBrown can steal £5, 000,000,000 from Taxpayers Pension funds AND TAX savings for the future.   AS you correctly point out, WE are living TOO long after  managing to survive , IN SPITE of Slime-- SO the master Plan is(Bet YOU sussed it out before the others) MRSA -Keeps the Numbers down and waiting list,s eh!!. PF-- Just a short distance away thru a tunnel or on a ship, is another World mate, NOT perfect---BUT, their people,s have a happier time, with less persecution and Gloom , and enjoy a life IS for living-cos its very short--shame yer mates dont get a real life , a bit more.init!!!! BUT--of course they DO--off they go, on their jolly,s--PF  YOURE paying this time, I paid last time.

B7VP, I love the way you suggest that I am merely ignorant of the situation.

I don't like politicians, whatever party they stand for, and the government we have are far from perfect. However I don't think they are out to screw us any more than anyone else. It is human nature to want more for yourself when you are in a position of power. It happens in every country to a greater or lesser extent. 

With respect to the money given in overseas aid, well I disagree. The people receving the aid are imeasurably worse off that us and to suggest otherwise is just plain wrong. This point comes down to a difference of opinion.

People can harp on about how bad the NHS is all they like, but I've never been private and never had a problme with it, nor have any of my family. There will always be examples of bad service and people who have been let down, why? because there are not limitless resoures and it is run by human beings. The other point is how would you feel if you worked for an organisation that was constantly being used as a political football and having to listen to people telling you how crap it is. It certainly wouldn't motivate me.

So politicians get 160K a year. If I was doing that job I'd want that kind of money. How much responsibillity do they have to shoulder? Far more than anyone who uses this forum I'll wager. If you make a mess at work, which everyone does from time to time, is your face splashed accross the front of the paper?  these people might get paid a lot but they have a lot less freedom than the rest of us.

As for your comments about Europe, this just sounds like 'the grass is always greener on the other side'. Sure living in Europe may have some advantages, but it's swings and roundabouts. If you think europe is so great, will you be voting to adopt the european constitution?

If you think MRSA is designed to kill us off a bit sooner then you are indead insane!! A master plan!, I think not. Like I said, bugs are getting more resistant to antibiotics because of their overuse. Sure the problem may not be as bad if say cleaning hospitals was not contracted out, but how many places do you know that dont contract out the cleaning??

Oh and stop refering to Tony Blair as my mate, he's not! Just  because i don't think the government are responsible for everything including the recent snow, doesn't mean I like the man.

Finally, it would make it a lot easier for me to understand your points if you wrote in a more clear way. Your posts are like a collection of sound bites

If you look at my previous post I did actually say I'd prefer to see the harderline - but that it's not as easy to implement as it is to say it.

On the Blair getting in by pretending to be friends of Celebs etc - that's just not true.

He got in because the British public had tired of Conservative 'in-party' fighting and the absolute lack of a credible leader. 

That's doesn't mean I'm a Socialist (well, neither are labour..) and it doesn't mean I'm anti-Tory.  In fact I'd consider myself very much floating voter at the moment because I always consider each party/leader on their own own merits and policies at the the time of voting.

As things stand though, I just don't see Howard as a credible leader and I think he's done himself and his party an incredible amount of damage with the latest Health Service spin of this week.  The way they have used the patient in question is utterly appalling, and even the patient has expressed her "disappointment" with the way her case has been used.

Edited by Coasting

Well here are some official figures for you (from the National Probation Service for England & Wales):

Cost of a Community Rehabilitation Order and Fulfilment:

£1,710

Cost of a Community Pubishment Order and Fulfilment (formerly known as a Community Service Order):

£1,500

Cost of putting someone into Prison for a year

£22,000

Now, put that into the further context of how much the existing Prison Service costs to run.

There are 128 prison establishments with a workforce of over 48,000 staff.

Annual running costs?  2003-2004......£2 BILLION

So the monies from the Dome would be, well, a drop in the ocean.

HM Prison Service actually accounts for 16% of the whole amount spent on the Criminal Justice System!

At the end of March 2004 there were 68,500 prisoners in the above.

That actually means that the REAL cost of keeping someone in prison for a year is almost £30,000 - and that is without the cost of new prison developments being taken into account.

Plus, £224 MILLION was spent on increasing capacities during 2004.

So the investment is there.  The point is that to do anything more would have to hit the taxpayer - and as you can see the monies are huge!

I'm not saying I don't think we should.  Personally, I'd like to see harder line.  It's just that Mr Howard knows fine well that the true resolution to the problem is a lot harder than he makes it out to be.

It's a good vote winner for him if the public are quite so fickle as to believe the headline of what ANY politician says though!

 

 

 

 

 

therealmccoy wrote: Isn't it nice to have a nice, healthy debate without having your car or house brought into the equation!!

Very!

therealmccoy wrote: Never forget the Michael Howard believes in prisons - not community service...

Ah yes he does...but if he were to get into power (which he won't, but lets just say there is a total block on all labour voting and he does get in) he'd soon change his mind when he found how much more money he was going to have to raise through taxing us to keep them all behind bars....

Everyone wants more prisons - until they find out how much it costs.