Dave

Dave, thanks for the reply.

It is something I've got my eye on in the next year, keeping the M3 and having a Turbo aswell, though my head says that I should get a 964 C2.

Just need to get a house with a drive!

Phil

JudgeBaxter wrote: ...I've had an old 930 shape 911 turbo... Dave B (JudgeBaxter)

Dave,

Out of interest, what was this like as an everyday car?

Thanks,

Phil

Rags wrote: and golf rallyes are getting cheaper! although G laders are great engines , the g60 engine does not have much tuning potential unless you chuck loadsa cash at it.

From what I can recall The Golf Rallye was not a touch on the Integrale in pure driving terms and arguably was not even as good as its Golf 16V brother. It was hardly an quicker and maybe a little slower. 

The VW Motorsport Golf Limited was a more interesting proposition (supposedly 210 bhp) but as only about 70 of those were produced  , all LHD and in the 4 door shell, you would have your work cut out to find one. I saw one in Germany about 7 years ago and it sounded great with the supercharger whistling but I suspect even that would not be as good as the Integrale.

Edited by PJSM3

There is an early Integrale in my class at the hillclimbs and sprints - F reg car, pretty standard with a chip.

My M3 - standard with a remap always beats him.

An Integrale has always been on my wish-list. The fact that it's Italian and will fall to pieces (allegedly) puts me off.

All of the box-arch specials are tempting and with a lottery win I'd get one of each - Integrale, Ur-Quattro (or a short-sport if money was no object) and  a Golf Rallye (As well as the M3 of course).

 

Thanks all for your replies. Yeah, I suspected the 'grale would be faster etc (I suppose you can't argue with raw figures that were recorded back in the day). But I have decided to get an E30 M3 anyway and was just interested to hear from someone who owns or has owned both of them. It's a car I always wanted and it has to be done [M3]. My bro has the 'grale so I may as well get something different than him anyway. I'm waiting on some money to come through (its supposed to be here soon - a week or 3) so as soon as it arrives the hunt starts in earnest. I plan to spend £6k but as always whatever you set you limit to when buyoing anything be you will always see a 'much' better car for that 'wee' bit more, and then for a 'wee' bit more than that you'll see an even better one etc etc! So I'll say £7k very tops then. I'll just have to see what's on the market when the time comes.

S14man

Your probably right as your car's bhp was chipped-up from standard by almost 20%. I was referring more to bog standard cars with the figures quoted. Certainly, a basic 8v with a good £150 quid chip can realiably deliver 230 bhp and 260/270 ft.lb of torque....which would give most E30 M3's a run for their money!!

cheers,

Dave b (JudgeBaxter)

Hi there,

I'm on my third grale (Evo1,16V and now an Evo2) and 2nd E30 M3 Evo2. Hard to quantify which is 'better' as they are both great. In a straight drag race, the Grale is quicker in a straight line in the sense that it will get to it's top speed very quickly and then sit there. The M3 has a higher top end but will initially get left behind and will not really start to reel in the grale until 115/120mph and will then glide by the grale's 137mph top speed onto it's top speed.

However, this is academic as neither car is really built for this and both cars excel on the twisty stuff. Grale's are legendary thru the corners...end of story. It's VERY hard to get them out of shape, you've really got to be trying to hurt yourself to get the back end to break away. They love a 4 wheel drift and the skinnier tyres on an 8v,16v & Evo1 are better for this. Evo2's are on 16" wheels and have a slighter wider track. It's like a limpet basically.

The M3 is also tremendous around the twisty stuff, but is obviously far more willing to let go and can be "played with" much easier in this respect.

I think the grale is a quicker car both on bends and on a straight (apart from ultimate top end of course), but both are immense fun and compliment each other beautifully. The BMW is built of granite by comparison, but to be fair, a well looked after example of either car will be relatively hassle free. None of the grales has ever let me down or failed to start anyway.

The BMW is much more practical in terms of semi-sensible mpg (unless you get an Evo2 grale which is nearly as good as the Bmw on fuel), decent sized boot, happy to cruise on a motorway (grale's alwasy feel like they want to go-go-go all the time, which is great fun, but not always what you want if you just want to do a normal motorway journey), and happy to pootle around town (BMW does nothing much below 4/4.5K rpm)

I've had an old 930 shape 911 turbo and also a 944 turbo (250bhp) which were also great cars, but I keep coming back to the Lancia's and the BMW's......until I can afford a 993 shape 911 turbo 4 anyway.

A good example of either marque will A) be hard to find but will be worth the wait and the hunt for, and B) will be tons of fun and a well-driven one will still emabarrass most things on the road today especially on a twisty B road blast.

I doubt there is much at all between an 8V grale (185bhp) and a standard early M3 (200bhp).

You hit the nail on the head when you said the grale has much more character and is fun to drive. Both the Lancia's and the E30 M3's are cars, that in my opinion, can claim to have a real 'soul' about them. They talk to you and let you know what they are doing like nothing else I've ever driven.

The Mitsu's and Scooby are, without doubt, awesome tools and very fast, but, for the amount of driver involvement you get by comparison, you might as well be playing a Playstation.

P.S.

For the record...grales do suffer from stress cracks in the chassis BUT, were talking about the handling being a little bit more squishy, NOT that the car will break in half or anything. It is a common problem on all variants of the car and virtually all the well-known specialists now do a strengthening plate kit which is copied off the original works rally Abarth kit. I had this fitted to my Evo1 when it started to go (about 500 quid) and the car was transformed. Heavily tracked E30 M3's can show a ripple or two on the front corners of the sun-roof aperture, so the BMW has it's weaknesses also.

Enjoy whichever you end up getting.

cheers,

Dave B (JudgeBaxter)

quattro turbo is one of my fav cars of all time.

quite funny really followed one the other day near bluewater, kent. driven by a elderly chap pulled up at lights together(looked like something at santa pod). Lights turned green and off we went. neck and neck in 1st and 2nd then i did have the better of it by a good car in the end. very satisfying beating this icon even though it was in a straight line. Think it was a 10v and not a later 20v model. Those 3 cars are definately in many peoples top ten for sure 

yeah, build quality is always an issue with integrales. My mates one hasnt seen a road for about 9 months!

 

niggles!

Funny that, these two were also on my list.

I had an Evo 1 until recently. It was pretty quick -  I discovered after buying it that it a pukka chip and was giving around 250bhp - on the roads it handled beautifully, and in the wet was awesome.  A friend following once on a cross country run in a 200bhp Mini Cooper S works came nowhere near keeping up.

However the leather interior and especially the dash creaked and rattled continually, which didn't exactly help ones confidence in its built quality, and there are stories of the bodyshells suffering structural failures. Mine spent a considerable amount of time in the workshop as well, mostly niggly stuff but the costs quickly added up.

As it was supposed to be my fun car I tried it on the track. The little bit of understeer that is very reassuring on the road turned into terminal front-end plough at track speeds. And within about 5 laps I had boiled the brake fluid and cooked the pads....

I sold it to buy a 520 Tourer family wagon, and then sold my Westfield for a M3 E30. Once this is on this road I'll tell you how it compares with the Intergrale.

SS7