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Zmurf View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Advanced Motoring Assessment
    Posted: 09-March-2004 at 17:03

Whilst at the Rockingham 'Better Driving Day', I took advantage of an offer of a free assessment of my driving offered by the local branch of the Institute of Advanced Motorists (apparently only eleven attendees at Rockingham took up the challenge).   I was mostly marked 'above average' and only 'met the standard' in a few areas--driving position, lane discipline and courtesy.  Fortunately I didn't get any 'below average' markings, but I had an interesting discussion with the assessor on some areas.

Maintaining progress: I was told off for being TOO SLOW.  I was in a 60 zone and only doing about 52 mph.  Apparently one should drive to the speed limit of conditions allow.  So when we got to a 70 zone I showed him 70mph in second gear to make up for it  : .

Wheel control: Interestingly, allowing the steering wheel to slide through your hands on the return IS acceptable, but only if the examiner is confident that you retain friction control on the wheel.

Block changes: I was told off for changing down through the gears approaching a roundabout.  Apparently you are supposed to continue in whatever gear (4th in my case), slow down using only the brakes, put your foot on the clutch as you come to a halt, and only then change into the appropriate gear.    I told the assessor I thought that was crazy.  

Elbows on window frame: I asked about this and was told it was a 'no no'.  Thinking about if afterwards I now realise I tend to put my right elbow on the frame when I'm changing gear with my left hand.  This means the maximum pivot point for my arm has changed from being potentially my shoulder and is now the elbow.  By doing this I consider I have better control.

Overall an interesting experience, and one I might follow up.

Tim



Edited by Zmurf
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-March-2004 at 17:20
Re: Block Changes

I've had a similar conversation with IAM members. I tried pointing out that if you were in say 4th gear and slowing to a stop, that if you should find the need to accelerate quickly you would not. They tried to argue this point asking when & why would I need to accelerate. My answer: When I look in my mirror and see that the car behind has not realised I am slowing and he is approaching me 20mph faster than my current speed. They did not accept this as a valid argument.....I beg to differ.

I must point out this was not at Rockingham but at a course a few years ago.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-March-2004 at 18:41
I agree with the above statement and like to be in the right gear before i need it. Nearly always i will heal and toe through the gears, but that allows for a smoother down change.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-March-2004 at 22:27

James, your local coordinators number is in your in box.

Tim

I doubt you were told off !!        advised perhaps.

It is a comletely different driving system from the one your normally use, and have become comfortable with.

I dont like all of it, and there isnt really any point in arguing it bit by bit, overall its good, although I think some of it is outdated, as per the "overlapping" gear changes we discussed at rockingham ( the old stalwarts dont agree with me though), although non overlapping gear changes do force you to plan ahead more, and it is a good disipline to learn, I dont use it everyday.

If you decide to do the course, (and I hope you do), you will "have" to drive to that system to take and pass the test.

After that...your choice.

Most people seem to take the bits they think are good, and combine them with their own style....me included....but dont tell them I said that !!!

I think it has made me more aware, and that cant be a bad thing.

All I can suggest is you try it.

And to all the young loonies out there, try using the advanced system on a twisty "B" road, then tell me 100 plus down a motorway is more exciting !!

Best Wishes

Nigel

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2004 at 15:08

 If there is one good thing to come out of this topic, and taking an Advanced assessment drive, its making drivers Think about what they do, when they drive.Hardly anyone ever questions Why they do this or that?So you may feel that you are a good driver,and comments made to you by an IAM observer, dont really apply to you, but-- perhaps a couple more points were good enough to make you change your thinking or method and which seems to help you.So a positive result.Nigel said we tend to take the things we like, thats human nature.its also the reason why one wants to be better at something than the next person , and if by passing a test improves our chances of staying alive, and out of trouble on the roads, its got to be the way to go.We dont All agree with the advice given, and slowly changes in attitude and thinking are taking place, both in the IAM, as well as us.WE can learn from each other.           

                                           SAFETYFAST                                                                                                



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-March-2004 at 16:51
i cant believe people need to take advanced anything .
i drive way ahead of where i am on the road and take note of everthing in my field of vision and beyond/ behind.
ive been driving cars . lorries since i was 17 and riding motorbikes since i was 16 leagel wise.
common sense helps a lot.
and to contradict myself , yes people should have to take advanced lessons

a little story... i was driving a van last november with a 19 year old with me who had been banned for speeding before his 1st year was up, i asked him what he could see while we was driving ,, his answer was a car in front ,,, i said how many and he said 1...
there was 3 cars a lorry on our side , 2 cars coming towards us on the other lane , a person on a push bike on the pavement and 2 more walking on the other side .

is this why our insurance is so expensive, looks like it to me .
just a little crazy.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-March-2004 at 21:15
Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

It is a comletely different driving system from the one your normally use, and have become comfortable with.


I dont like all of it, and there isnt really any point in arguing it bit by bit, overall its good, although I think some of it is outdated, as per the "overlapping" gear changes we discussed at rockingham ( the old stalwarts dont agree with me though), although non overlapping gear changes do force you to plan ahead more, and it is a good disipline to learn, I dont use it everyday.


If you decide to do the course, (and I hope you do), you will "have" to drive to that system to take and pass the test.


After that...your choice.



... But isn't that the crunch? "It's your choice?" It's like taking your driving test, on the day you do what the instructor/examiner says and pass, and then you do your own thing!

I've always had the impression that all these courses - police training included - are not always up to date - they are only good in parts.

"Must not use gears to slow down?" Why not?? I've always done it, especially at roundabouts, slip into the gap, don't stop, anticipate.

Good driving come from experience.
I'm sure that these courses can help the new driver, but to us 'oldies' I wonder?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-March-2004 at 23:58
Originally posted by thepits thepits wrote:

Originally posted by Nigel Nigel wrote:

It is a comletely different driving system from the one your normally use, and have become comfortable with.


I dont like all of it, and there isnt really any point in arguing it bit by bit, overall its good, although I think some of it is outdated, as per the "overlapping" gear changes we discussed at rockingham ( the old stalwarts dont agree with me though), although non overlapping gear changes do force you to plan ahead more, and it is a good disipline to learn, I dont use it everyday.


If you decide to do the course, (and I hope you do), you will "have" to drive to that system to take and pass the test.


After that...your choice.



... But isn't that the crunch? "It's your choice?" It's like taking your driving test, on the day you do what the instructor/examiner says and pass, and then you do your own thing!

I've always had the impression that all these courses - police training included - are not always up to date - they are only good in parts.

"Must not use gears to slow down?" Why not?? I've always done it, especially at roundabouts, slip into the gap, don't stop, anticipate.

Good driving come from experience.
I'm sure that these courses can help the new driver, but to us 'oldies' I wonder?

 

Try it and let me know !!!

Best Wishes

Nigel

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2004 at 00:00

Originally posted by skull skull wrote:

i cant believe people need to take advanced anything .
i drive way ahead of where i am on the road and take note of everthing in my field of vision and beyond/ behind.
ive been driving cars . lorries since i was 17 and riding motorbikes since i was 16 leagel wise.
common sense helps a lot.
and to contradict myself , yes people should have to take advanced lessons

a little story... i was driving a van last november with a 19 year old with me who had been banned for speeding before his 1st year was up, i asked him what he could see while we was driving ,, his answer was a car in front ,,, i said how many and he said 1...
there was 3 cars a lorry on our side , 2 cars coming towards us on the other lane , a person on a push bike on the pavement and 2 more walking on the other side .

is this why our insurance is so expensive, looks like it to me .

And for the rest of us mere mortals there are advanced driving lessons !!!!!!!

Best Wishes

Nigel

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2004 at 09:29

Hello Tim

I think I was that blasted! Observer.  I remember the discussion we had on the drive, and I was impressed with your overall driving.  One has to understand that there is a system to drive to for the advanced driving test.  I will go along with Nigel in saying that I do not agree with everything that is included, but as an Observer I need to stick to the basics.

I would also say it is common practice for people on their first drive with an IAM Observer for them to drive below the speed limit, as they may be nervous and wanting to be on their best behaviour.  It only takes one comment that they are not making progress for this to change.  So long as the conditions allow.

For those considering the possibility of taking the advanced course, please keep an open mind and I am sure you will enjoy the experience.  We have had people on the course aged 19 to 82.  Some drive 50000 miles a year, some drive from home to school only.  I wouldn't say I was the best driver in the world despite taking my test, BUT I know a hell of a lot more about what other drivers are doing on the road, I control my car better and I enjoy driving a lot more than I did.  Although I have tried to persuade my wife into allowing me to buy a car similar to Tim's (excuse my ignorance about which model it is), with no success.

Richard

Originally posted by Zmurf Zmurf wrote:

Whilst at the Rockingham 'Better Driving Day', I took advantage of an offer of a free assessment of my driving offered by the local branch of the Institute of Advanced Motorists (apparently only eleven attendees at Rockingham took up the challenge).   I was mostly marked 'above average' and only 'met the standard' in a few areas--driving position, lane discipline and courtesy.  Fortunately I didn't get any 'below average' markings, but I had an interesting discussion with the assessor on some areas.

Maintaining progress: I was told off for being TOO SLOW.  I was in a 60 zone and only doing about 52 mph.  Apparently one should drive to the speed limit of conditions allow.  So when we got to a 70 zone I showed him 70mph in second gear to make up for it  : .

Wheel control: Interestingly, allowing the steering wheel to slide through your hands on the return IS acceptable, but only if the examiner is confident that you retain friction control on the wheel.

Block changes: I was told off for changing down through the gears approaching a roundabout.  Apparently you are supposed to continue in whatever gear (4th in my case), slow down using only the brakes, put your foot on the clutch as you come to a halt, and only then change into the appropriate gear.    I told the assessor I thought that was crazy.  

Elbows on window frame: I asked about this and was told it was a 'no no'.  Thinking about if afterwards I now realise I tend to put my right elbow on the frame when I'm changing gear with my left hand.  This means the maximum pivot point for my arm has changed from being potentially my shoulder and is now the elbow.  By doing this I consider I have better control.

Overall an interesting experience, and one I might follow up.

Tim

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2004 at 10:11
I think one of the issues I have always had with any of these sort of courses, is that you have to drive in a particualr way to pass the test. That to me seems wrong. The excercise should be in how good are your observation, anticipation and driving skills (which ever manner you use), not whether you perform a specific method when approaching a roundabout etc. It's like heel and toe, some can do it, some can't. But as I understand it, this technique is frowned upon. Again, don't agree with that, I can drive my car far more smoothly employing heel and toe than not.

I suppose it's a bit like the Jimmy Hendrix thing, I bet if he had turned up at his guitar tutor playing his right handed fender upside down, they would have said "you'll never be able to play a note, son.... How wrong could they be.......
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2004 at 10:52

Originally posted by lancelotII lancelotII wrote:

I think one of the issues I have always had with any of these sort of courses, is that you have to drive in a particualr way to pass the test. That to me seems wrong. The excercise should be in how good are your observation, anticipation and driving skills (which ever manner you use), not whether you perform a specific method when approaching a roundabout etc. It's like heel and toe, some can do it, some can't. But as I understand it, this technique is frowned upon. Again, don't agree with that, I can drive my car far more smoothly employing heel and toe than not.

I suppose it's a bit like the Jimmy Hendrix thing, I bet if he had turned up at his guitar tutor playing his right handed fender upside down, they would have said "you'll never be able to play a note, son.... How wrong could they be.......

I think some people take this stuff too literally.

YES you do have to drive to a system to pass the test, but its no different from anything else with an "exam/test" at the end, there is a sylabus.

Once youve passed, you are a free spirit, you then put what you have learnt into your own driving pattern.

This isnt for everyone, what bothers me the most is the people who think they are so good, nothing applies to them, I'm sure it has happened, but will be quite rare, if people are that good, just take the test, dont bother with the tuition, then enjoy what benefits there are from having done so.

If everyone drove to one of the advanced systems, there would be very very few accidents, if everyone lived to the bible (there are other religous books available !!) there would be very little crime.

Of course in real life, neither is going to happen.

In my humble opinion anything thats helps people become more aware of others on the road has got to be a good thing, and thats what this system, and the others are about,  precission vehicle control and good observation.

No matter how long you have been doing anything, let alone driving, there is always something else you can learn, and people are to be applauded, not mocked for trying to better themselves.

It is quite amusing to see posts on here regarding the image of the IAM, with all these excellent drivers in BMWs on here, they are rather living up to the arrogant image that mark of car has.

Best Wishes

Nigel

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2004 at 12:36
I totally agree that the roads would be massively safer if people were to taught to drive, rather than pass a test. The teaching would include as many "soft" skills like observation and awareness as the actual driving bit. I just don't think people should fail because they don't follow specifics, if you can make safe, steady progress, while showing courtesy to other road users and pedestrians. Should it really matter if you cross your hands, heel and toe or rest your arm on the window.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2004 at 14:51

Well i am signed up and will give it a go. I have already completed and passed one advanced driving course and have done a single seater racing course. IAM next on the agenda.

The point however in this thread seems to be missed. I believe i am a pretty good driver, but i want to be better that why i am doing the course and that the reason why anybody should do any driving course full stop. And if you have to consider driving and or adapt your driving style then so be it.

I am with Nigel on this one

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2004 at 15:09

In reply to LancelotII, I think the fact that you mention observation and forward planning in your post means that you have the skills necessary for advanced driving.  What happens a lot of the time are these areas are missed by a large number of drivers and hopefully that's where advanced motoring can help.  Don't get hung up on the specifics, the principles of passing the 'test' are that your driving has to be safe, smooth and progressive.  How you do this and what system you follow is up to you.  So long as you plan your driving and adapt to the situations that presents safely, does it really matter how you did it and in what order?  In my humble opinion the answer is no.

Regards

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-March-2004 at 15:58

 Agreed Richard.The fact that someone wishes to Improve their standard is the most important point.They are saying I can Improve.This is the first step forward.You may not agree with Roadcraft, nobody said its carved in stone or Perfection.Its the opportunity to learn some new things , you may not have had the chance to do before.Whats the Prob.?

                                          SAFETY( I Did ) FAST

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-March-2004 at 01:29
nigel , the problem is the people that this or any other systems like it would help the most dont do it and they carry on thinking that everything they do is correct and other people are wrong.
just a little crazy.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-March-2004 at 02:33

Skull

Until retesting becomes a reality, rather than just an idea, all I, and people like me can do is to encourage others as best we can.

I dont know much about the other three systems, but the IAM is a charity, and all the ground staff are voluntary.

At my level, it only means I give up a couple of hours a week, to guide someone through the system to test level, Richard Glasspool will do more hours.

As with most of the posts so far on this forum (on this subject), you make some good points, but comments like " I cant believe people need advanced lessons", arent the most helpful, especially when you then contradict yourself.

If you are as good as you think, passing any of the advanced tests should be a doddle for you, and if you care enough to want to try and do something about the driving standard on our roads, then you are very welcome to join us.

If the IAM system bothers you, have a look at RoSPA, DIAmond, or the RAC systems.

Best Wishes

Nigel

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-March-2004 at 22:42
if the driving test was done properly by the government in the first place , and let the police look after the roads instead of cameras then we wouldnt need any extra training was my point .
i have had race training on road and track in cars and on bikes and i have had anti skid avoidence training, all of which i was told by the instructers that i needed none of it and my driving record is spotless . i have raced the island and tracks . because i use common sense to drive, like driving to the conditions in and out of town and on the motorways. and knowing whats going on around you at all times.
every time you go out in or on anything the situation is different .
and i never stick to the speed limit .

the reason ime against it is a few years ago a advanced driving group of instructers nealy killed me and a mate because they wasnt paying enough attention to their surroundings.
it was only my quick thinking that i saw they was blind to where i was and acted just in time to escape , so dont preach to me saying if you THINK you are good enough , being arrogant like that dont help you.
there is driving and driving . and ive been doing it for over 20 years without causing a accident or injury to anyone.
and you say i think i can drive.
wake up .
like i said the people that need training dont do it.
just a little crazy.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-March-2004 at 23:33

Skull

I think we have gone as far as we can with this.

Enjoy your driving.

Best Wishes

Nigel

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