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Nick View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: sticky tyres
    Posted: 21-February-2004 at 20:02
Could someone please explain to me like I am a child, about the column on 'The ultimate better driving day tyre' that is on page 6 of the club mag, because I am either losing the plot or have missed something that I wasn't supposed to have.

Confused,
Nick
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-February-2004 at 20:20

 Nick, I presume the Compound is of a Sticky one, which needs to be warmed up.When done, the grip gets better & Better.As it has the tread stated its road legal, BUT--- the wear rate will be high for Road use.I have Yoko,s similar, But track use and maybe 15 miles to and from a circuit.

                                     SAFETYFAST

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Nick View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-February-2004 at 23:49
Thanks John, but that's not what I meant.. I'll send you a private message.
Nick
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-February-2004 at 15:58
Nick,
I know what you meant Nick,I used those tyres when I raced post historic sportscars in the 80/90`s.
Brian will probably have them on his car at the next CLUB meet he organises,the two faced ******** [Mod: watch the language lads].
Jon


Edited by b318isp
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-February-2004 at 16:53

I am confused.
Regarding the article on page 6, I suppose it depends who wrote it. It might be Nick Griffin but it isn't clear.
If the person who wrote the piece on page 6 doesn't know about the club's new stance on sticky tyres, then it won't be anything to do with Brian Bradley, Waddo etc, and I bet their policy on sticky tyres will have to stand.
I bet when Bradley/Waddo see the article, they will go mad because it contradicts everything they are saying. It's not helpful to them. It does highlight the farcical nature of their ruling about sticky tyres though. I mean, where do you draw the line? If someone pulls up at a BMWCC "better driving day" in an E46 M3 CSL wearing factory fitted sticky Michelins, will they be allowed on track? If they are, why should other drivers not be allowed to use those (or similar) tyres? And let's not hear people say that the E46 M3 CSL is a focussed car that can "handle" these tyres. My old Sport Evo was far more focussed than this new barge and was far more suited to wearing sticky tyres.
The whole thing's a mess.
I've just got a Porsche and joined the Porsche club. Sticky tyres are encouraged at their track days. Says a lot really.
John.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-February-2004 at 20:06

Before we all spend too much time and in some cases unpleasantness (referring to parts of the anatomy expressed one or two emails earlier and it has to be said quite incorrectly and totally inappropriately, does anyone need to be quite so crude?) over this press release.

When I received a copy of the journal last week I could not believe as a Club official what I read. These feelings were duly noted and sent through to the club office by return. In response I learned that it was simply an error made by putting in a press release without thinking.

With all the debate about such tyres over the last year it was a most unfortunate and unecessary occourance.

The clubs stance on sticky tyres is very simple: With increasing awareness of insurance issues and safety at such events we believe it is better for members to concentrate on improving driving skill and driving standard than to let sticky tyres do the work.

If someone were to lose adhesion with sticky tyres (as all tyres let go at some point) it would be at a much increased speed with more likelihood of greater damage.

The club is there first and foremost to support owners of BMW's regardless of whether it is a 316 or an M3 CSL, better driving days have been in existence for perhaps 20/25 years I dont know as I have been a member for only 10 or so and the original focus is for its members to explore their cars and their individual capabilities but not in race type situations.

There is also a responsibility for less skilled members not to be harrassed or pressured by faster drivers and to be able to enjoy the freedom of a more safe environment (than for example on the road) to learn and develop.

Where I believe the waters have quite unintentionally became muddied is that the clubs focus has always been the same but with the advent of the 'trackday scene' which came well after the club started their days, it has without us realizing it become associated with 'another' track day but operated by the BMW Car Club. To bring matters back into line something had to be done and this is a clear and simple way of bringing matters back into line.

'Trackdays' as operated by many organisations are focused to the out and out driving enthusiast and so one can say that all attending are of a like mind and situations on track can become almost race like, nothing wrong with that if that is what one wants but it is not the same focus for the car clubs BDD's. 

Richard Baxter   

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-February-2004 at 20:12

 I went to the Donnington better driving day and when i booked up i was not aware of the tyre issue. When i rang the club and they said no sticky tyres i was a bit peed off. The whole issue seems pathetic. I normaly run full slicks purchased new £90 each they last 7plus track days. This is against £125 for eagle f1 wich only last 1 track day on the front of the car.

 So i duly bought more road rubber to enable me to get home legaly. Imagine my dismay to then find the both cars that shared my garage where on yokohama advance rubber and further inspection revealed plenty more sticky tyres. Also it became that several race cars where present and are able to use any tyres they wish.

I did not complain about the sticky tyres as i did not want to get any one into trouble, good luck to them i say. I was just peed of that in effect the day cost me an extra £250.

 I do not believe there is any real support in the club for the banning of sticky tyres and if this is not reversed support for these days will dwindle.

Ps noboddy denies that you can have just as much fun on nrmal tyres but it is safer and cheaper on circuit rubber

PIRATE PETE
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-February-2004 at 20:16
Sticky tyres are safer by virtue of them being suited to the task of track driving because that is what they are designed for. The club's argument about safety holds no water in my opinion (and lots of other people's).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-February-2004 at 23:26
Richard,
The crude comments were aimed at the club official that organised the last Donington meeting,you know, the one who banned our track day tyres without consultation with the membership costing most of us more than a few hundred quid.Then at that very meeting had his car shod with R compound tyres.
If you feel my comments inappropriate then i appologise,but the majority know,it is spot on.
Jon
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-February-2004 at 11:01

Jon

I'm afraid the information banded around re who banned what tyres etc is incorrect. As we know Brian Bradley organised and ran the Donington day as he has done so with great success for many many years even going back to the days of the first CSL.

Brian is not as far as I know paticularly a supporter of the line the club is now taking over sticky tyres those reasons were outlined in my response yesterday evening,

In terms of members who bought sticky tyres without being consulted in advance of the ban, I personally have some sympathy but with the insurance constraints causing the club increasing pressure along with the need to reduce cornering speeds (a common problem at all circuits) a decision had to be taken that did not allow prior consultation.

I do hope that those who were so financially inconvenienced have been able to put these tyres to use on other track days. But using offensive descriptions of people on a forum where free speech is allowed reuires some personal responsibilty is just not on, particularly when the story believed is totally incorrect.

I will be asking a club moderator to remove this word.

Richard Baxter  

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Nick View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-February-2004 at 12:45
Richard,
I totally understand what you are saying and I appreciate the sort of liability the club is exposed to.
I have always believed that it is 'education' that is the key to safer driving day.
I have been lucky at Croft in the respect that we do not seem to attract many muppets... I do have to have 'words' now and again with some drivers that dispaly a lack of 'education' that I mentioned earlier.. but the marhalls are quick to spot them and we bring them in there and then before a problem arises.. explain a few things over again in detail sometimes with an instructor it the car. It seems to work.

I may be speaking out of turn here but it seems to me that some of the other organisers could do a little bit more than just file the entry forms.
I try to speak to everyone I don't know and find out a little bit about them, their car and importantly their experience.. they get to know about what we expect at Croft.
... sure it's a pain, takes up a lot of free time and you end up sad and lonely.. but at least you get to know who you are getting.

I do resent having to abide by certain rules that have only come about because of things that have happened elsewhere. If only the descision makers could come up to Croft and judge us on our merits.. they may be pleasantly surprised.

Nicholas Wright
Croft'96,'97,'98,'99,2000,'01,'02,'03.. and now taking bookings for '04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-February-2004 at 14:24
I am no longe a member if the club due to the ridiculous stance on the R compound tyre issue. (people probably think I have a damm cheek still contributing to these forums, but I enjoy the community spirit....)
It doesn't affect me as I now track with others, but Richard's commnents that there is a need to reduce cornering speeds must fill people with dread. This is the thin end of the wedge, as cars progress their cornering speeds will increase irrespective of tyres, see formula 1 for a classic example......At the end of the day you may be better served running better driving days on the road, as this is where the bias is seeming to be aimed.
I can't see how the club can play the R compound tyre card but then allow full race cars, but maybe I am missing something.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-February-2004 at 16:14
Originally posted by lancelotII lancelotII wrote:

I can't see how the club can play the R compound tyre card but then allow full race cars, but maybe I am missing something.


I asked Chris Wadsley this very question a while back. Chris is a BMWCC track-driving instructor and he helped to decide that R compound tyres should be banned. As I recall he said that the race cars were allowed on track because their drivers were more likely to know what they are doing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-February-2004 at 16:25
Richard.I think the problem arose because when a number of us rang the office.We were told that it was up to the individual running the event.If you now say this wasn`t the case,then I owe Brian an appolgy.
Getting back to why they were banned.
I can see where your comming from,on the less experienced feeling intimidated by the faster drivers.Lets face it we have all been there!But is this not why we ran three groups,novice/intermidiate/experienced.This catered for ALL of us."BMW car club a club for ALL BMW owners".
As for slowing cornering speed etc.. road tyres etc.. etc..I`m affraid it`s Bull.Those that use R compound tyres know,Yes, they give marginally more grip,but that`s not the whole story.I can lap at the same speed on a good road tyre,as I could on an R compound tyre,but on the second lap I wouldn`t have any grip due to them having overheated. and this is where your arguement fails,This cannot be safer.This is why people will wear out a brand new set of tyres in 1 day,They are not designed for circuit use,R compounds are.They allow you to drive quickly and safely all day with no nasty surprises.They also last quite a while,mine are into their second year(but then, I only drive slowly).
There will always be fast drivers,
        Jon
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-February-2004 at 20:03

I would say your approach Nick is very integrated as not only do you gain attendees respect but it goes a long way to strengthening club ties and I would say that atmosphere at the club days is very good and unique. I have attended other track days where I decided to forgo the pleasures of mixing it on circuit because there has been little discipline or awareness to others.

I do not think the ruling has anything to do with the differences between one organiser and another, a poorly run day would not be sustainable.

A line has been drawn by the club ahead of that which may well be followed by others we will have to see but there is a lot of discussion going on behind the scenes.

Personally I would say that smooth safe driving learned on the track is something to benefit everyone on the road, I would rarely approach circuit speeds on the highway so I know that I'm well within limits. Sticky tyres create an unatural benefit with only a speed through corner interest what subtleties of skill can be developed by that. We are not attending BDD's to beat our lap times. It is also not a semi race meeting though I like many enjoy a good scrap but not against others with an unatural advantage it does not work.

Road tyres force us to operate within a certain performance envelope as described by Jon as indeed does every tyre somewhere on a scale and this is where the line has been drawn otherwise where does it end.

It is appreciated that a total agreement is unlikely to occour on what is obviously a contentious and much debated subject but the club offers what it offers at extremely good value to all its members and we all have a choice about what it is that we wish to experience on circuit and we try to place our feet in the shoes that fit us best.  

richard
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-February-2004 at 20:20

 

 If a there is a problem with driving standards, swift action by the club officials will soon sort it. Any one found intimidating others or driving dangerousely should be asked to leave.

I do not subscribe to the idea that racing drivers are less likely to cause problems. Have you not attended a club level motorsport meeting. The driving standard is often quite poor and sometimes more akin to demolition derby standard. Is not the additional power and stiff suspension more likely to lead to a large speed difference than the odd sticky tyre. At the last donnington meet I avoided going into group 1 as it mostly consisted of full race cars. As there were only two groups I was in the same group as the novices. I did not want to go in group 1 as I felt with road tyres I might get in the way. To be fair i did not encounter any problems running in this group but some cars did seem to be cornering considerably slower.

 If I was able to run the sticky tyres and run in group 1 I am sure that some of the slower drivers would be better off.

 Ps I agree with richard that there is no excuse for personal insults on these pages. I think its fair to say that we all forget about all the hard work that people carry out to make these events possible. Although I do not agree with the tyre stance, it doesnt mean your efforts in general are not apreciated.

 Cheers         

PIRATE PETE
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-February-2004 at 20:35
Originally posted by Richard von Bat Richard von Bat wrote:

Personally I would say that smooth safe driving learned on the track is something to benefit everyone on the road, I would rarely approach circuit speeds on the highway so I know that I'm well within limits. Sticky tyres create an unatural benefit with only a speed through corner interest what subtleties of skill can be developed by that. We are not attending BDD's to beat our lap times. It is also not a semi race meeting though I like many enjoy a good scrap but not against others with an unatural advantage it does not work.


Road tyres force us to operate within a certain performance envelope as described by Jon as indeed does every tyre somewhere on a scale and this is where the line has been drawn otherwise where does it end.


  



The thing is Richard, you haven't addressed the point that many people (myself included) think that R compound tyres are safer on the track than regular road tyres. Here are the reasons:

1) They do not "go off" after 2 or 3 laps (this is unsafe). By the way....they do not "let go" all of a sudden (this is a myth), they slide progressively. They have predictable qualities all day long. And the skills learned with these tyres ARE TRANSFERRABLE TO THE ROAD. I know, I've used them.

2) They do not wear out quickly on track (unsafe and expensive).

3) If people bring a second set of wheels with their R compound tyres on, it would prevent people driving home on shagged road tyres that they have just done the track day on (obviously dangerous).

Can't we think broadly for a minute? Why not introduce R compound tyres as pieces of safety equipment, just like a crash helmet? Let's turn the argument on its head and start with facts. Always a good place to start.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-February-2004 at 22:05
just a quick thought, what makes a race car a race car? roll cage? not street registered? as i believe a few road m3's are now caged and safety harnessed are these allowed to run 'R' compound?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-February-2004 at 22:21
I don't want to repeat all the arguments, but something springs to mind when reading "reducing the corner speed".
Ban the sticky tyres! Coil overs next? uprated brakes + pads? bucket seats? Where do you draw the line?
I have done a few track days with road tyres, and yes I ruined them each time, they overheated and I had to adapt my speed to be safe. If you are disciplined enough, no problem. But be honest, as longer the day goes on, as better you know the track. And you are going FASTER. Not a big help if your tyres can't keep up with you.
just my thoughts.......

PS: someone lent me his slicks in Castle Combe. That was the first time on track where I had the feeling I am fully in control of the car
E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-February-2004 at 12:01
I can only comment about Croft, but if I felt we had a problem with any given corner then we would close the circuit for a moment and 'cone' the corner down to make it slower.
Nick

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