sticky tyres

This is quite an interesting topic and having been a club member for a year now (my renewal coming up) i need to think wether i want to renew my membership. Anyhow that aside here is my opinion...

I think that John W's / Uwes comments are justified as they are correct about R compounds not overheating and letting go all of a sudden which 'normal' tyres could causing a potentially dangerous situation.
Also i think the club should rethink its rules on safety and the grouping of members at better driving days. I think all drivers should HAVE to hold a FULL licence to be allowed out on track and not just the provisonal that is required (according to the rockingham eligibility rules). Do you not think it is unsafe to allow young inexperienced drivers onto a race track with other cars? Even if they have got someone experienced in the passenger seat they dont have the required skills to drive on the road never mind under track conditions

So if the road legal 'R' compounds are not allowed why should drivers who dont even hold a full licence by allowed on track - its a contradiction of terms dont you think....

Edited by dom_k

As new members of the club, my wife and are very much looking forward to attending our first Better Driving Day at Cadwell Park. Although I've driven all manner of fast cars and bikes in my time, my wife is new to the power of our E36 M3 Evo. The road is not the place to start finding out about the limits of your skill vs. the considerable power of an M3.

A controlled environment, such as offered in the BDD's, is definitely the place to start the long progression to learning how to drive a very powerful vehicle safely, quickly and competently.

As part of the "controlled environment" I had considered purchasing a set of "track tyres". Why, when we are both going to be taking it nice and easy in the slow group, probably for the next several BDD's we attend?

1. I like my Pirelli P-Zero's. They are expensive and I don't want to destroy them, especially through overheating or poor car control.


2. After the track day we have to get home safely, despite the best efforts of the people who allegedly "repair" our roads, and of course, despite whatever weather conditions we encounter. Knackered tyres just don't cut the mustard!


3. It's a question of correct tool for the job. P-Zero's are designed as a road tyre and not as a tyre to be used on a track.


4. I would like to drive on tyres that respond predictably throughout the day, and possibly from event to event depending on how they wear.

Potentially, the ban on track tyres puts me in a position where I have to either use my road tyres (and risk ruining them) or buy "cheap" road tyres which I would never consider fitting to my vehicle due to their poor performance characteristics!

Both of wish to be in a safe and controlled environment where we can explore the performance of our M3 without being a threat to other road users, to operate the machinery at least in some way towards it's design potential, and to learn what is possible with the car.

If I'm going to make a mistake due to poor judgement the only place I'd want to be is on a circuit designed for the purpose, where the only others around me are there for the same essential reasons.

In this "controlled environment" having the correct equipment would seem entirely in keeping, not at all at odds, with the purpose of the event.

I cannot see how restricting people to an inferior tyre choice which will, in the long run, cost them more money can be of any benefit to anyone.

Worse, however, is the possible effect four or five or six meeting down the calendar. By this time our driving abilities have hopefully improved. By definition this means we will be going quicker. Not necessarily faster per se, but simply quicker as a result of taking better lines, better anticipation, more certainty of braking points, etc.

But then comes the problem. Because we have been denied the use of track tyres we have a set of road tyres on a car that has now been driven relatively quickly for several laps on less than great tyres. The performance of the tyres drops quickly as they overheat and one of us either (i) has to "enjoy" driving a quick car slowly to try and preserve the tyres or (ii) potentially depart the track unexpectedly, and possibly unpleasantly!

Even further issues arise when my wife and I swap over. Just exactly what handling can each of us expect if the tyres are less than predictable?

Excessive speed and agressive driving are not caused by "track tyres".

If they are, then those things are also caused by M3's, M5's and CSL's. Should we ban them too?

Just a final (personal) view I would like to make to this discussion otherwise it will be at the risk of repeating myself.

If you are overheating your tyres you are either pushing too hard or not driving the ideal line. This can happen on all levels of scale so regardless of which tyres you use at some point they are going to let go so its not a case of either or.

Structually road cars are designed with road tyres, put on sticky tyres and the car is having to absorb far greater stress through its suspension joints and ultimately the shell. 

I have been attending the clubs BDD's since 1996, in cars that have been both heavy in weight and light. First not all cars are good on track because they are too heavy and do not want to change direction think of any five series and to some extant the e36 and e46 3 series with the larger engines the front end weight is not helpful. And will therefore cause greater tyre wear

Putting that particular issue aside as it is not entirely relevant to the discussion apart from the point of tyre wear that is being made. However I have found that between makes of tyre some are better than others and have discovered which ones through conversations with other members in the same car and who I have seen are driving fast and smooth. For example have never found Pirellis P Zero's very good. So it is worth discussing this issue to help ones cause.

The comments concerning destroying ones tyres, I have found that wear on road and wear on track occour in different places, on track its the outer edge on road its across the surface and not the edges. So on this point I do not appear to dramatically wear my road tyres out any faster over the life of my tyres. Off course some tracks are harder on tyres than others (particularly concrete surfaced airfields) also the tighter the turns the greater the scrub but as a tight turn is a slow turn why waste energy trying to overcome the impossible? A slower speed through a turn will reduce understeer and enable one to exit in a more controlled fashion putting less stress on the car and driver thus avoiding the need to overheat the tyre.

The whole point here though is that I have been driven around various circuits by a whole range of differnt drivers in 'more' or 'less' powerful cars. And it does not matter a fig what car they are in or what tyres they have fitted to their cars, the impressionable drives for me (because I do not wish to put my self in danger from a larey driver, although I unfortunately have on one occasion at Croft) one notices are from the drivers who are deceptively fast, but drive a smooth unfussed line.

Maybe what all this is about is our ego's? Look we attend our first 'on track' experiences because there is a fascination derived from the fact that in day to day terms we may enjoy the thrill of speed and car control and by comparison to most we maybe pretty handy! So we start Driving fast on circuit which is a totally differnt experience particularly in how to carry speed through the corners - suddenly we see other cars coming past when we can be trying very hard (and becoming quite hot in the process).

If we have some competative spirit running through our veins we do not like it, what can I do to change this? buy a faster car? make it a faster car? or fit a set of stickys on? maybe all. I would suggest that the best driver is one who is able to learn to handle his car with feel and delicacy to whatever situation he is in by constantly making adjustments to suit with precision, awareness and most importantly feel.

I will make an offer to anyone who is so sure that stickys are the answer to let me arrange for them to sit with one or two of the particular drivers we have in the club and that will demonstrate in the best way possible what a difference the driver makes otherwise all this verbage just becomes an intellectual process with no end.  Possibly then (and only possibly) the whole ethos behind the ban on sticky tyres on our BDD's will provide a new and fresh challenge to our individual driving experience.          

Nick wrote: A full driving licence is indeed a requrement.. and you should always take it with you in case you are asked to show it. Rockingham may allow prov licence at some of their other events. Nick Croft'04

Nick, the sheet im refering to is produced by the car club. It is titled BETTER DRIVING DAY INFORMATION SHEET.
The bit im refering to is on the reverse side, point C under ELIGIBILITY. is this a mistake then??

Guys,
I think Richard and Howard bought the wrong car,it should have been a Rover.

Jon

Howard wrote: If you go on the track and make use of the undoubtably better grip afforded by these tyres, and then swap them for normal ones on the way home, it may well be that you just forget that these have less grip, and next thing you know you are facing the wrong way after exiting a roundabout in the wet!

I think you should give us more credit than that. I don't know about you, but I drive home after track days nice and slowly because I am tired. There is no way on earth that my speeds around roundabouts heading back from the track would come anywhere near to breaking traction on lovely SO2's that WERE NOT STRESSED TO HELL EARLIER ON THE TRACK.

You seem to think that skills and confidence gained through track driving on sticky tyres are not transferrable to road driving on standard tyres. Well you are wrong. In actual fact the difference in grip afforded by R-compound stickies over normal road tyres is not night and day (it would be with slicks though....different ball game those). R-compound tyres slide progressively. But they don't go off after a couple of laps. They are safer. They handle more predictably and when they are tucked away in your boot on the way home, you have the confidence of knowing your regular road tyre is not knackered and will take care of you.

Richard

So what about the £1,000 I payed out for new wheels and tyres for "better driving days" only to find out that I was no longer welcome at the events of the club I was a member of?????

I am not sure if this point has been made to you by anyone else, I really haven't got the time to read through this at the mo, but the gripe was with the way it was decieded NOT because it was decieded. Many of the people on hear are ex racers (Roops, John etc) that understand the "insurance" side of things, but why was this decision taken without notifing members?? I am still livid with a club that is supposed to look after it's members!!!!!!!!!

James

dom_k wrote: Nick, the sheet im refering to is produced by the car club. It is titled BETTER DRIVING DAY INFORMATION SHEET. The bit im refering to is on the reverse side, point C under ELIGIBILITY. is this a mistake then??

Please email me a copy of this document. If it does state that a provisional licence is eligible and it is on club paper then I will get to the bottom of it and report back. In the meantime, take it for granted that full licences are required on all BMW Car Club better driving days.
As the mail server is being moved today and is down, my address is h@635csi.co.uk

I cannot agree with the assertion which appears to be being made that skills learned on a track are not transferable to the road. That sounds like complete bunk to me. Applying that logic would make anyone who drives a "wings and slicks" car a complete and utter menace on the road due to the vast difference in handling between the race vehicle and the road vehicle.

Before anyone gets the wrong end of the stick here I am in no way advocating that anyone should go to any club's BDD, track day, or whatever, learn to do high speed J-Turns and then go out and demonstrate them on a public road! Anyone who drives their car on the road, with its road tyres fitted, in the same manner they drive it on a track, with track tyres fitted, deserves to be put on the public transport diet until they regain their senses!

I'm sorry, but I don't believe I'm going to become a raving looney on the road just because I've had track tyres on my road car whilst driving (surprisingly) on a track...

Learning what the vehicle is capable of and developing the skills to know what to do, and how to do it within the performance envelope of the vehicle, are things that increase driver capabilities and are directly transferable to every day road use.

For example, a surprising number of motorcycle accidents are the result of riders not leaning their bikes over far enough due to fear that they will be pitched off by scraping the centre stand etc.

So much so that I seem to remember from my 1984 BMW RS100RS manual a line in there about "...the bike can be safely leaned over much further than most riders imagine".

Certainly almost everyone I know who has taken their bike for a ride on a race track has come back into the pits and said "Wow, I didn't know just how far I could lean my bike into a corner!"

Developing a better understanding of the capabilities of a machine, developing the skills to safely use those capabilities and developing the judgement and confidence to use those skills appropriately in any environment, road or track, can only be a benefit.

How many car accidents on our roads could have been avoided if the drivers had the skill and confidence to take evasive action, and doing so in a skilful manner, not in one which results in a worse accident as they try and make their car do the impossible?

I've read with interest the various opinions about just what level of tyre damage can be expected to road tyres during a track day. The views seem to vary between "not much at all" to "tyres knackered due to overheating". So not a lot of agreement there...

To ensure that I get to drive on the BDD I guess I will turn up on standard road tyres and make my judgement on the level of tyre damage based directly on my own experience.

To respond to a comment made by Richard,

Richard wrote: If you are overheating your tyres you are either pushing too hard or not driving the ideal line.

As my wife and I are novices to this car on a track I think it is quite possible that we will make all the classic mistakes of braking too late and too hard, turning in at the wrong point, spinning up the rear as we exit a corner, etc. But that's what learning is about - learning how to control the car and not have those things occur.

There is an excellent article in the current BMWCCGB Magazine about learning the ring (in an Alpina B10) and the description of "...imitating a hippo..." into a corner had me in stitches, mostly because I'm sure I'd be doing the same thing!

So, yes, excessive tyre wear due to not selecting the ideal line etc. will almost definitely occur. That's precisely one reason I had thought of track tyres for the event!

I have no doubt that a good driver can do fast laps on bald cross-ply's (again, not that I am advocating that). That is what being a good driver is all about. On my snowboard I can do full race carve turns on my powder board in soft boots on groomed runs whereas most people find it hard to do properly even on a stiff board whilst wearing race boots. It's not about the kit, it's the level of skill and knowing how to do it.

I don't want track tyres to try and artificially inflate my ego, or to give me "an edge". This isn't a race! They just simply seem to be the right thing to use on a track, nothing more or less.

Don't you use snow/winter tyres during winter when you live in an alpine environment?

Dr Shred,
Yes, the tyre problem is affecting other clubs not just ours.
You will begin to see an increase in the amount of trackdays that shun the use of stickys as their insurance premiums come up for re-newal.
Nick, Croft'04