sticky tyres |
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Nick
Bavarian-Board Contributor BMWCC Area Organiser Yorks & Humber Joined: 21-October-2002 Location: God’s own county... Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1319 |
Posted: 29-February-2004 at 21:41 | |
I'll pretend I didn't hear that! |
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Nick
Bavarian-Board Contributor BMWCC Area Organiser Yorks & Humber Joined: 21-October-2002 Location: God’s own county... Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1319 |
Posted: 29-February-2004 at 21:38 | |
I'll pretend I didn't hear that! |
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grant w
Really Senior Member II Joined: 26-February-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 558 |
Posted: 29-February-2004 at 20:27 | |
the point i'm trying to make is that , any one just joining the the club books a BDD , gets the paper work reads the rules and regs , and there's no mention about what tyres to use or not to use ,. not all members of the club use this forum , expect not all members have internet access , so this fact should be stated on the booking form and on the paperwork that comes with your tickets , when i rang the office to confirm my booking for rockingham , i asked all the usual questions , signing on time , briefing time , start and finishing time , it'll all be on the paperwork that you'll recieve , is there anything else i should need to know about the day ? , no all you need to know will be sent to you with your tickets , no mention of the most important issue at the moment !! NO TRACKDAY TYRES ,
i use R compound tyres to keep the costs down i bought my set in oct 02 and i'm still using then now , i have them turned on the rims after a couple of outings , thats value for money , theres no way in the world you could do that on road tyres i don't care how good a driver you are a e30 m3 will scrub out it's front tyres in no time , another point is that at croft last year the driver of the day award went to simon potts , myself second , can't remember the guys name how came third , we were all driving e30 m3's and all on stickies , as voted by the marshalls to be the best drivers on that day , and then the club turns round and says your type is not wanted if you want to drive like that go to a track day , that says it all ... Edited by grant w |
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www.redevom3.co.uk 1989 e30 m3 2.5 1996 e36 m3 evo , sold 2002 e46 m3 smg . 1991 Daihatsu 2.8 TD Work Horse Rust Never Sleeps . Tattooed Lady - Bearded Baby - there my family .. |
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kevin
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 29-November-2002 Location: Camberley, Surrey Status: Offline Points: 3189 |
Posted: 29-February-2004 at 18:35 | |
Nick, the docs are identical. Sorry Grant but road tyres for me. I need to get the "nut behind the steering wheel" sorted first so I will be getting instruction. I want to be in good shape in the M3 for Croft.
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Kevin
'04 E46 330Ci Convertible '08 E61 535d Touring (TorqueMeister Towbarge) ’95 E34 M5 ’89 E30 M3 (Cecotto) |
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therealmccoy
Really Senior Member II Joined: 27-April-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 552 |
Posted: 29-February-2004 at 18:35 | |
Nick, I mean no offence to you. My comments are aimed at the people that have gone out of their way to ban these tyres for various reasons, then don't mention it ANYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!
It is a question of consistancy, people that orgainise these events do so on behalf of the Car Club. So descisions that they take are again on behalf of the club. So unless the Car Club veto descisions, they are behind them 100%... |
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Nick
Bavarian-Board Contributor BMWCC Area Organiser Yorks & Humber Joined: 21-October-2002 Location: God’s own county... Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1319 |
Posted: 29-February-2004 at 18:17 | |
Grant,
That bit of the pre-drive check sounds ever so familiar.. I could have wrote that myself. Have they 'lifted' my Croft documents? I penned all that for our first Croft back in '96 when I was still wet behind the ears. It is just common sense stuff allied to a few scrutineering pointers I picked up along the way. It is not the be all and end all.. it is just a little helper for the novice who may have left a carrier bag of shopping on the back seat never mind not dipping the engine oil. James... we don't all use that shower.. watch it! Nick, Croft'04 |
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therealmccoy
Really Senior Member II Joined: 27-April-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 552 |
Posted: 29-February-2004 at 16:04 | |
Just shows what a shower the BMW Car club are, and how full of the aformentioned shower the people that are saying it's a safety issue! James edited to remove 'objectionable language' - please follow the guidelines Edited by Webdunk |
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Work Harder! A Million Benefit Claimants Depend On YOU!
E30 M3, The REAL McCoy! 89 M3 Now Sold 99 323i *FOR SALE* PC Probs?? Click here! |
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grant w
Really Senior Member II Joined: 26-February-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 558 |
Posted: 29-February-2004 at 14:10 | |
i'm just reading the pre-drive checks sheet for rockingham
1. wheels & tyres Plenty of tread please and make sure your wheel nuts are tight. (tyre pressures need to be up a bit). is'nt there something missing , you get people to book BDD's take there money , send out the paperwork a week before the event so there's no way they can cancell and get a refund and then tell them sorry no track tyres , when there is no mention on the forms anywhere that track tyres cannot be used .. |
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www.redevom3.co.uk 1989 e30 m3 2.5 1996 e36 m3 evo , sold 2002 e46 m3 smg . 1991 Daihatsu 2.8 TD Work Horse Rust Never Sleeps . Tattooed Lady - Bearded Baby - there my family .. |
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John W
Really Senior Member II Joined: 01-November-2002 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 630 |
Posted: 28-February-2004 at 20:05 | |
So it's the insurance companies that are once again making our lives difficult. Brilliant. Don't you just love 'em? |
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Nick
Bavarian-Board Contributor BMWCC Area Organiser Yorks & Humber Joined: 21-October-2002 Location: God’s own county... Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1319 |
Posted: 28-February-2004 at 18:15 | |
Dr Shred,
Yes, the tyre problem is affecting other clubs not just ours. You will begin to see an increase in the amount of trackdays that shun the use of stickys as their insurance premiums come up for re-newal. Nick, Croft'04 |
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dom_k
Really Senior Member I sideways Joined: 06-April-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 335 |
Posted: 28-February-2004 at 18:13 | |
howard, i wil email it on monday as i dont have access to a scanner at the moment until i go back to work.
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www.dkperformanceimports.co.uk
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dr_shred
Newbie Joined: 26-February-2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 16 |
Posted: 28-February-2004 at 13:25 | |
I cannot agree with the assertion which appears to be being made that skills learned on a track are not transferable to the road. That sounds like complete bunk to me. Applying that logic would make anyone who drives a "wings and slicks" car a complete and utter menace on the road due to the vast difference in handling between the race vehicle and the road vehicle.
Before anyone gets the wrong end of the stick here I am in no way advocating that anyone should go to any club's BDD, track day, or whatever, learn to do high speed J-Turns and then go out and demonstrate them on a public road! Anyone who drives their car on the road, with its road tyres fitted, in the same manner they drive it on a track, with track tyres fitted, deserves to be put on the public transport diet until they regain their senses! I'm sorry, but I don't believe I'm going to become a raving looney on the road just because I've had track tyres on my road car whilst driving (surprisingly) on a track... Learning what the vehicle is capable of and developing the skills to know what to do, and how to do it within the performance envelope of the vehicle, are things that increase driver capabilities and are directly transferable to every day road use. For example, a surprising number of motorcycle accidents are the result of riders not leaning their bikes over far enough due to fear that they will be pitched off by scraping the centre stand etc. So much so that I seem to remember from my 1984 BMW RS100RS manual a line in there about "...the bike can be safely leaned over much further than most riders imagine". Certainly almost everyone I know who has taken their bike for a ride on a race track has come back into the pits and said "Wow, I didn't know just how far I could lean my bike into a corner!" Developing a better understanding of the capabilities of a machine, developing the skills to safely use those capabilities and developing the judgement and confidence to use those skills appropriately in any environment, road or track, can only be a benefit. How many car accidents on our roads could have been avoided if the drivers had the skill and confidence to take evasive action, and doing so in a skilful manner, not in one which results in a worse accident as they try and make their car do the impossible? I've read with interest the various opinions about just what level of tyre damage can be expected to road tyres during a track day. The views seem to vary between "not much at all" to "tyres knackered due to overheating". So not a lot of agreement there... To ensure that I get to drive on the BDD I guess I will turn up on standard road tyres and make my judgement on the level of tyre damage based directly on my own experience. To respond to a comment made by Richard,
As my wife and I are novices to this car on a track I think it is quite possible that we will make all the classic mistakes of braking too late and too hard, turning in at the wrong point, spinning up the rear as we exit a corner, etc. But that's what learning is about - learning how to control the car and not have those things occur. There is an excellent article in the current BMWCCGB Magazine about learning the ring (in an Alpina B10) and the description of "...imitating a hippo..." into a corner had me in stitches, mostly because I'm sure I'd be doing the same thing! So, yes, excessive tyre wear due to not selecting the ideal line etc. will almost definitely occur. That's precisely one reason I had thought of track tyres for the event! I have no doubt that a good driver can do fast laps on bald cross-ply's (again, not that I am advocating that). That is what being a good driver is all about. On my snowboard I can do full race carve turns on my powder board in soft boots on groomed runs whereas most people find it hard to do properly even on a stiff board whilst wearing race boots. It's not about the kit, it's the level of skill and knowing how to do it. I don't want track tyres to try and artificially inflate my ego, or to give me "an edge". This isn't a race! They just simply seem to be the right thing to use on a track, nothing more or less. Don't you use snow/winter tyres during winter when you live in an alpine environment? |
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dr_shred
Newbie Joined: 26-February-2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 16 |
Posted: 28-February-2004 at 12:02 | |
So, is armco scraping becoming such a regular event? If so what is breakdown of Slick/Track/Road tyre usage in these incidents? Have track tyres suddenly become dangerous? I was always under the impression that they were the appropriate tool for the job. Do other clubs have this problem, or is it just BMWs that need to be removed from the armco after track tyres are fitted to them? |
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Howard
Moderator Group Did I say thaaaat? Joined: 14-October-2002 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 735 |
Posted: 27-February-2004 at 21:24 | |
Please email me a copy of this document. If it does state that a provisional licence is eligible and it is on club paper then I will get to the bottom of it and report back. In the meantime, take it for granted that full licences are required on all BMW Car Club better driving days. As the mail server is being moved today and is down, my address is h@635csi.co.uk |
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Nick
Bavarian-Board Contributor BMWCC Area Organiser Yorks & Humber Joined: 21-October-2002 Location: God’s own county... Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1319 |
Posted: 27-February-2004 at 20:52 | |
I am not aware of the sheet that you mention. I only look after Croft and I would only let a full Licence holder take part.. as far as I know Cadwell is the same but you would have to check with Martin and I am pretty sure Donington is as well but again you would have to check with Brian. We all run our events as each sees fit and there will be some differences.. maybe the organiser of Rocky has different criterea, I don't know. Nick |
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therealmccoy
Really Senior Member II Joined: 27-April-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 552 |
Posted: 27-February-2004 at 20:11 | |
Richard
So what about the £1,000 I payed out for new wheels and tyres for "better driving days" only to find out that I was no longer welcome at the events of the club I was a member of????? I am not sure if this point has been made to you by anyone else, I really haven't got the time to read through this at the mo, but the gripe was with the way it was decieded NOT because it was decieded. Many of the people on hear are ex racers (Roops, John etc) that understand the "insurance" side of things, but why was this decision taken without notifing members?? I am still livid with a club that is supposed to look after it's members!!!!!!!!! James |
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Work Harder! A Million Benefit Claimants Depend On YOU!
E30 M3, The REAL McCoy! 89 M3 Now Sold 99 323i *FOR SALE* PC Probs?? Click here! |
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John W
Really Senior Member II Joined: 01-November-2002 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 630 |
Posted: 27-February-2004 at 20:03 | |
Richard von Bat,
You are suggesting that the users of sticky tyres might have a competetive side to their personality which makes them want to use these tyres for their ability to lower lap times. Not true in my case I'm affraid. I have summarised my reasons for using them in my post above where I quote Howard. I also suspect that you and Howard are subtly (or not) implying that if the sticky tyre users learned better track driving technique, they wouldn't feel the need for these tyres. Well hang on there.....I have had plenty of instruction from the club's instructors and at Croft I was told that my technique was already fine by one of those instructors. I do not over-drive my car. I do not induce understeer in the bends on any tyre I use (sticky or not) because I drive how I am told to by the instructors. I can't be that bad behind the wheel, over 3 laps at Croft last year I reeled in and overtook the main / head instructor in my Sport Evo (OK...it had stickies on).....so don't generalise. |
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John W
Really Senior Member II Joined: 01-November-2002 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 630 |
Posted: 27-February-2004 at 19:51 | |
I think you should give us more credit than that. I don't know about you, but I drive home after track days nice and slowly because I am tired. There is no way on earth that my speeds around roundabouts heading back from the track would come anywhere near to breaking traction on lovely SO2's that WERE NOT STRESSED TO HELL EARLIER ON THE TRACK. You seem to think that skills and confidence gained through track driving on sticky tyres are not transferrable to road driving on standard tyres. Well you are wrong. In actual fact the difference in grip afforded by R-compound stickies over normal road tyres is not night and day (it would be with slicks though....different ball game those). R-compound tyres slide progressively. But they don't go off after a couple of laps. They are safer. They handle more predictably and when they are tucked away in your boot on the way home, you have the confidence of knowing your regular road tyre is not knackered and will take care of you. |
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John W
Really Senior Member II Joined: 01-November-2002 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 630 |
Posted: 27-February-2004 at 19:39 | |
Oh Howard, don't be so melodramatic. These tyres don't steer you into the Armco you know. They decrease the chances of you leaving the track because they are designed to work under track conditions. |
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jon90
Really Senior Member II Joined: 11-January-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 653 |
Posted: 27-February-2004 at 18:39 | |
Guys,
I think Richard and Howard bought the wrong car,it should have been a Rover. Jon |
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