sticky tyres

Nick wrote: A full driving licence is indeed a requrement.. and you should always take it with you in case you are asked to show it. Rockingham may allow prov licence at some of their other events. Nick Croft'04

Nick, the sheet im refering to is produced by the car club. It is titled BETTER DRIVING DAY INFORMATION SHEET.
The bit im refering to is on the reverse side, point C under ELIGIBILITY. is this a mistake then??

Just a final (personal) view I would like to make to this discussion otherwise it will be at the risk of repeating myself.

If you are overheating your tyres you are either pushing too hard or not driving the ideal line. This can happen on all levels of scale so regardless of which tyres you use at some point they are going to let go so its not a case of either or.

Structually road cars are designed with road tyres, put on sticky tyres and the car is having to absorb far greater stress through its suspension joints and ultimately the shell. 

I have been attending the clubs BDD's since 1996, in cars that have been both heavy in weight and light. First not all cars are good on track because they are too heavy and do not want to change direction think of any five series and to some extant the e36 and e46 3 series with the larger engines the front end weight is not helpful. And will therefore cause greater tyre wear

Putting that particular issue aside as it is not entirely relevant to the discussion apart from the point of tyre wear that is being made. However I have found that between makes of tyre some are better than others and have discovered which ones through conversations with other members in the same car and who I have seen are driving fast and smooth. For example have never found Pirellis P Zero's very good. So it is worth discussing this issue to help ones cause.

The comments concerning destroying ones tyres, I have found that wear on road and wear on track occour in different places, on track its the outer edge on road its across the surface and not the edges. So on this point I do not appear to dramatically wear my road tyres out any faster over the life of my tyres. Off course some tracks are harder on tyres than others (particularly concrete surfaced airfields) also the tighter the turns the greater the scrub but as a tight turn is a slow turn why waste energy trying to overcome the impossible? A slower speed through a turn will reduce understeer and enable one to exit in a more controlled fashion putting less stress on the car and driver thus avoiding the need to overheat the tyre.

The whole point here though is that I have been driven around various circuits by a whole range of differnt drivers in 'more' or 'less' powerful cars. And it does not matter a fig what car they are in or what tyres they have fitted to their cars, the impressionable drives for me (because I do not wish to put my self in danger from a larey driver, although I unfortunately have on one occasion at Croft) one notices are from the drivers who are deceptively fast, but drive a smooth unfussed line.

Maybe what all this is about is our ego's? Look we attend our first 'on track' experiences because there is a fascination derived from the fact that in day to day terms we may enjoy the thrill of speed and car control and by comparison to most we maybe pretty handy! So we start Driving fast on circuit which is a totally differnt experience particularly in how to carry speed through the corners - suddenly we see other cars coming past when we can be trying very hard (and becoming quite hot in the process).

If we have some competative spirit running through our veins we do not like it, what can I do to change this? buy a faster car? make it a faster car? or fit a set of stickys on? maybe all. I would suggest that the best driver is one who is able to learn to handle his car with feel and delicacy to whatever situation he is in by constantly making adjustments to suit with precision, awareness and most importantly feel.

I will make an offer to anyone who is so sure that stickys are the answer to let me arrange for them to sit with one or two of the particular drivers we have in the club and that will demonstrate in the best way possible what a difference the driver makes otherwise all this verbage just becomes an intellectual process with no end.  Possibly then (and only possibly) the whole ethos behind the ban on sticky tyres on our BDD's will provide a new and fresh challenge to our individual driving experience.          

As new members of the club, my wife and are very much looking forward to attending our first Better Driving Day at Cadwell Park. Although I've driven all manner of fast cars and bikes in my time, my wife is new to the power of our E36 M3 Evo. The road is not the place to start finding out about the limits of your skill vs. the considerable power of an M3.

A controlled environment, such as offered in the BDD's, is definitely the place to start the long progression to learning how to drive a very powerful vehicle safely, quickly and competently.

As part of the "controlled environment" I had considered purchasing a set of "track tyres". Why, when we are both going to be taking it nice and easy in the slow group, probably for the next several BDD's we attend?

1. I like my Pirelli P-Zero's. They are expensive and I don't want to destroy them, especially through overheating or poor car control.


2. After the track day we have to get home safely, despite the best efforts of the people who allegedly "repair" our roads, and of course, despite whatever weather conditions we encounter. Knackered tyres just don't cut the mustard!


3. It's a question of correct tool for the job. P-Zero's are designed as a road tyre and not as a tyre to be used on a track.


4. I would like to drive on tyres that respond predictably throughout the day, and possibly from event to event depending on how they wear.

Potentially, the ban on track tyres puts me in a position where I have to either use my road tyres (and risk ruining them) or buy "cheap" road tyres which I would never consider fitting to my vehicle due to their poor performance characteristics!

Both of wish to be in a safe and controlled environment where we can explore the performance of our M3 without being a threat to other road users, to operate the machinery at least in some way towards it's design potential, and to learn what is possible with the car.

If I'm going to make a mistake due to poor judgement the only place I'd want to be is on a circuit designed for the purpose, where the only others around me are there for the same essential reasons.

In this "controlled environment" having the correct equipment would seem entirely in keeping, not at all at odds, with the purpose of the event.

I cannot see how restricting people to an inferior tyre choice which will, in the long run, cost them more money can be of any benefit to anyone.

Worse, however, is the possible effect four or five or six meeting down the calendar. By this time our driving abilities have hopefully improved. By definition this means we will be going quicker. Not necessarily faster per se, but simply quicker as a result of taking better lines, better anticipation, more certainty of braking points, etc.

But then comes the problem. Because we have been denied the use of track tyres we have a set of road tyres on a car that has now been driven relatively quickly for several laps on less than great tyres. The performance of the tyres drops quickly as they overheat and one of us either (i) has to "enjoy" driving a quick car slowly to try and preserve the tyres or (ii) potentially depart the track unexpectedly, and possibly unpleasantly!

Even further issues arise when my wife and I swap over. Just exactly what handling can each of us expect if the tyres are less than predictable?

Excessive speed and agressive driving are not caused by "track tyres".

If they are, then those things are also caused by M3's, M5's and CSL's. Should we ban them too?

This is quite an interesting topic and having been a club member for a year now (my renewal coming up) i need to think wether i want to renew my membership. Anyhow that aside here is my opinion...

I think that John W's / Uwes comments are justified as they are correct about R compounds not overheating and letting go all of a sudden which 'normal' tyres could causing a potentially dangerous situation.
Also i think the club should rethink its rules on safety and the grouping of members at better driving days. I think all drivers should HAVE to hold a FULL licence to be allowed out on track and not just the provisonal that is required (according to the rockingham eligibility rules). Do you not think it is unsafe to allow young inexperienced drivers onto a race track with other cars? Even if they have got someone experienced in the passenger seat they dont have the required skills to drive on the road never mind under track conditions

So if the road legal 'R' compounds are not allowed why should drivers who dont even hold a full licence by allowed on track - its a contradiction of terms dont you think....

Edited by dom_k

I don't want to repeat all the arguments, but something springs to mind when reading "reducing the corner speed".
Ban the sticky tyres! Coil overs next? uprated brakes + pads? bucket seats? Where do you draw the line?
I have done a few track days with road tyres, and yes I ruined them each time, they overheated and I had to adapt my speed to be safe. If you are disciplined enough, no problem. But be honest, as longer the day goes on, as better you know the track. And you are going FASTER. Not a big help if your tyres can't keep up with you.
just my thoughts.......

PS: someone lent me his slicks in Castle Combe. That was the first time on track where I had the feeling I am fully in control of the car

Richard von Bat wrote: Personally I would say that smooth safe driving learned on the track is something to benefit everyone on the road, I would rarely approach circuit speeds on the highway so I know that I'm well within limits. Sticky tyres create an unatural benefit with only a speed through corner interest what subtleties of skill can be developed by that. We are not attending BDD's to beat our lap times. It is also not a semi race meeting though I like many enjoy a good scrap but not against others with an unatural advantage it does not work. Road tyres force us to operate within a certain performance envelope as described by Jon as indeed does every tyre somewhere on a scale and this is where the line has been drawn otherwise where does it end.

The thing is Richard, you haven't addressed the point that many people (myself included) think that R compound tyres are safer on the track than regular road tyres. Here are the reasons:

1) They do not "go off" after 2 or 3 laps (this is unsafe). By the way....they do not "let go" all of a sudden (this is a myth), they slide progressively. They have predictable qualities all day long. And the skills learned with these tyres ARE TRANSFERRABLE TO THE ROAD. I know, I've used them.

2) They do not wear out quickly on track (unsafe and expensive).

3) If people bring a second set of wheels with their R compound tyres on, it would prevent people driving home on shagged road tyres that they have just done the track day on (obviously dangerous).

Can't we think broadly for a minute? Why not introduce R compound tyres as pieces of safety equipment, just like a crash helmet? Let's turn the argument on its head and start with facts. Always a good place to start.

I would say your approach Nick is very integrated as not only do you gain attendees respect but it goes a long way to strengthening club ties and I would say that atmosphere at the club days is very good and unique. I have attended other track days where I decided to forgo the pleasures of mixing it on circuit because there has been little discipline or awareness to others.

I do not think the ruling has anything to do with the differences between one organiser and another, a poorly run day would not be sustainable.

A line has been drawn by the club ahead of that which may well be followed by others we will have to see but there is a lot of discussion going on behind the scenes.

Personally I would say that smooth safe driving learned on the track is something to benefit everyone on the road, I would rarely approach circuit speeds on the highway so I know that I'm well within limits. Sticky tyres create an unatural benefit with only a speed through corner interest what subtleties of skill can be developed by that. We are not attending BDD's to beat our lap times. It is also not a semi race meeting though I like many enjoy a good scrap but not against others with an unatural advantage it does not work.

Road tyres force us to operate within a certain performance envelope as described by Jon as indeed does every tyre somewhere on a scale and this is where the line has been drawn otherwise where does it end.

It is appreciated that a total agreement is unlikely to occour on what is obviously a contentious and much debated subject but the club offers what it offers at extremely good value to all its members and we all have a choice about what it is that we wish to experience on circuit and we try to place our feet in the shoes that fit us best.  

lancelotII wrote: I can't see how the club can play the R compound tyre card but then allow full race cars, but maybe I am missing something.

I asked Chris Wadsley this very question a while back. Chris is a BMWCC track-driving instructor and he helped to decide that R compound tyres should be banned. As I recall he said that the race cars were allowed on track because their drivers were more likely to know what they are doing.

Richard,
I totally understand what you are saying and I appreciate the sort of liability the club is exposed to.
I have always believed that it is 'education' that is the key to safer driving day.
I have been lucky at Croft in the respect that we do not seem to attract many muppets... I do have to have 'words' now and again with some drivers that dispaly a lack of 'education' that I mentioned earlier.. but the marhalls are quick to spot them and we bring them in there and then before a problem arises.. explain a few things over again in detail sometimes with an instructor it the car. It seems to work.

I may be speaking out of turn here but it seems to me that some of the other organisers could do a little bit more than just file the entry forms.
I try to speak to everyone I don't know and find out a little bit about them, their car and importantly their experience.. they get to know about what we expect at Croft.
... sure it's a pain, takes up a lot of free time and you end up sad and lonely.. but at least you get to know who you are getting.

I do resent having to abide by certain rules that have only come about because of things that have happened elsewhere. If only the descision makers could come up to Croft and judge us on our merits.. they may be pleasantly surprised.

Nicholas Wright
Croft'96,'97,'98,'99,2000,'01,'02,'03.. and now taking bookings for '04

Richard,
The crude comments were aimed at the club official that organised the last Donington meeting,you know, the one who banned our track day tyres without consultation with the membership costing most of us more than a few hundred quid.Then at that very meeting had his car shod with R compound tyres.
If you feel my comments inappropriate then i appologise,but the majority know,it is spot on.
Jon