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dryle View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11-April-2007 at 14:36

in the irish times today

seemingly biofuels will cause more harm to the environment than good, yes the plants produce O2 to replace CO2 but the impact is that wheat prices are high, maize prices has doubled since last year, both crops are at 25 yr low stockpiles.

virgin ground will be destoyed ie rainforests to plant more crops, also biodiesel produces 10 times the amount of CO2 than diesel.

although we think that we are helping the environment we are causing more harm than good.
Dave Ryle


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Points: 927 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeemaBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-April-2007 at 15:59

Take that Tree Huggers!!!

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Points: 2581 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingalexf68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-April-2007 at 19:34
The whole argument is that a car running on Bio Ethanol only puts out the
same (or similar) amount of CO2 that the plants take in when growing. But I
don't think it works out anywhere near that. And you have to mix it with at
least 15% petrol so the engine doesn't sieze. As well as the damage to the
forests you have all the CO2 produced by the farmers, trucks to transport it
and the refining process. Saab are really cashing in on it though. Have you
seen the amount of them recently? €6000 VRT refund because it 'can' run on
bio fuel. What a scam. Who says they're not all running on petrol. Where can
you buy this bio stuff anyway? And the price is going up so nobody will buy
it if it's more expensive then petrol.

I wonder if you can get a 50% VRT reduction for any biofuel car? Like the
Koenigsegg CCX.
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Points: 75 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote highbeem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-April-2007 at 20:56

Alot of people thought that the bio fuels were a dream answer. 

The co2 taken in by the plants while growing is later nullified by the energy required in the harvesting, transport and refining.

i admit to working in the offshore industry in Azerbijan at the moment.

The reserves here in the Caspian are reckoned to be slightly less than Saudi at 200-300 billion barrels. Southern part of Gulf of Mexico slightly less again. China is sitting on huge reserves. While there last year for nearly 2 months there was a Japanese C-130 aircraft flyby everyday to take pictures sometimes extremly low approx 300ft. China and Japan have never been the best of buds but the oil fields between Shanghi and Okinowa could be a gigantic worry.

Oil companies never ever lose out. 

Wars are great for business they get more for their product and they are rarely directly in the line of fire.

 

 



Edited by highbeem
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flyingalexf68 View Drop Down
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Points: 2581 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingalexf68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-April-2007 at 21:54
The answer to all our problems is Hydrogen powered cars. The only thing we
(and by we I mean scientists who know what they're doing) have to do is
figure out a very efficient way of separating hydrogen from water. Then
we're sorted. Get all the everyday stuff like commuter cars, busses, trains
and things running on it so we can have lots of petrol for our M3's and
Ferrari's.
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Points: 75 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote highbeem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-April-2007 at 23:27

 

Batteries lighter and more capacity. The torque is great from lecky motors. That Lexus 400h can shift it big time.

 
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Points: 38 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishwoody Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-April-2007 at 10:16

Recently I read that a lot of the bio diesel was also produced from palm oil grown in Indonesia - harvested and transported using Dinosaur juice to Western Europe where biodiesel companies refine/blend to produce a biodiesel, get the subsidies (or equivalent by pricing against normal diesel with all its taxes) and then sell to the consumer who can feel good about his contribution to stop global warming - while in fact the CO2 footprint for such biodiesel may be several times larger than simply buring the dino diesel.  THe government is also happy with this "solution" as the CO2 emmitted is not on their patch - some other country is responsible for this so the government can more easily meet their Kyoto targets.  Whats needed is a way of measuring CO2 total footprint and giving consumers this information when purchasing.

IMHO the Hydrogen based solution is the way to go - generate hydrogenfrom renewables such as wind (and use/store the Hydrogen when there is no wind)...Still a long way off this technology yet and perhaps price of dino juice has to go up before such a solution becomes economically viable....

 
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dryle View Drop Down
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Points: 1348 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dryle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-April-2007 at 12:54

bio diesel from palm oil produces 10 times as much Co2 as ordinary diesel, that excludes the harvesting. they say that the poor countries will lose out as a lot of the crops will be used for the motor industry as that is were the money is therefore famine will be even more common in the next few years.

also "virgin" land will be used for planting more crops ie reducing rainforest by burning which per acre emits 1300million tonnes of co2.(quoted from guardian)

it is all well and good trying to be "green" with your car and it has been mentioned here before regarding co2 emmissions for the manufacture/disposal of hybrids is far greater than ordinary cars.

even castro has voiced his concerns regarding the issue of biofuels and we may have to wait until 2nd generation hybrids/biofuels are produced by car companies that not only reduce the amount of co2 for useage but also in the manufacture and require less of these crops. (but i think he may worry there may be a risk of depleted wine/beer)

they will not imho reduce cars like irish woody said as they are in the pockets of petroleum companies.



Edited by dryle
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Points: 2581 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingalexf68 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-April-2007 at 22:28
There was a guy on the radio today talking about a new biodiesel plant in
Wexford. It's going to be refining vegetable oil, animal fats and some other
stuff. Sounds promising but not sure how clean it is.
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Points: 10000473 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thepits Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-April-2007 at 22:32

Methane - that's what we should use, plenty of that around.....

.......ask a farmer

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But don't care.
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Points: 3311 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rossi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-April-2007 at 22:32

Originally posted by flyingalexf68 flyingalexf68 wrote:

There was a guy on the radio today talking about a new biodiesel plant in
Wexford. It's going to be refining vegetable oil, animal fats and some other
stuff. Sounds promising but not sure how clean it is.

kitchen aromas coming from your exhausts soon...with a FREE cooker hood 
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dryle View Drop Down
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Points: 1348 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dryle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-April-2007 at 22:33

Originally posted by flyingalexf68 flyingalexf68 wrote:

There was a guy on the radio today talking about a new biodiesel plant in
Wexford. It's going to be refining vegetable oil, animal fats and some other
stuff. Sounds promising but not sure how clean it is.

your car would smell like the local chipper
Dave Ryle


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Originally posted by thepits thepits wrote:

Methane - that's what we should use, plenty of that around.....

.......ask a farmer

nah, the farmer will just tell you it's all just wind and pish  
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Originally posted by Rossi Rossi wrote:

Originally posted by thepits thepits wrote:

Methane - that's what we should use, plenty of that around.....

.......ask a farmer

nah, the farmer will just tell you it's all just wind and pish  

Well....... wind anyway!

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But don't care.
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incidentally here is a link to dryle's article...
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Points: 388 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beemerchris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2007 at 00:35

Lads the whole discussion is not so much about bio fuel and that we will all drive around with it. It's about the necesary changes we all have to make in the near future. The Reports ALL talk about a huge change needed in our own behaviour in the verry near future as what we are doing right now is not sustainable regardless of what fuel is used.

They just try to ese it in a little. BMW for example doesn't go there they develop H2 as fuel everone starts talking about ones carbon footprint that will be what counts. So the kiss of dead for multi flying trips, fancy food from NZ and soo on, or we all sit in the cold and dark houses so that we can fly and drive and eat as before ..... Dosn't matter where the savings in CO2 come from but they will come
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