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Fey!
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Funs over, Scotty; beam down my clothes!
Joined: 28-February-2005
Location: Galway
Status: Offline
Points: 4161
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Posted: 28-March-2006 at 11:45 |
Maybe there should be a "Problems with Dealers Forum", with any new threads being notified by email to a club official or someone in BMWs' marketing/service departments. That way they're getting any nmegative feedback and can take appropriate action.
Likewise, you could do the same thing with a positive slant to it - "Dealers Who Appreciate Our Custom Forum".
Or is that just a tinpot idea?
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thepits
Moderator Group
Joined: 09-July-2003
Location: far far away
Status: Offline
Points: 10000473
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Posted: 28-March-2006 at 10:56 |
kbannon wrote:
... the forum is public ... |
Quote "The views expressed here are those of individuals and are not necessarily the views of the BMW Car Club, BMW (GB) Ltd. or BMW (AG)." Unquote
Enough said?
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Cats know your every thought.
But don't care.
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Jack735
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 14-September-2005
Location: Edinburgh
Status: Offline
Points: 1055
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Posted: 28-March-2006 at 10:53 |
kbannon wrote:
Just to answer a few points:- the forum is public but that does not mean that the dealer is aware that the allegation is now public - should every dealer scour the internet daily just in case there is something about them? The dealer in question or any dealer is free to express their side of the story but until we can be sure that they can place their side of the story in the public domain, it will always be a one sided argument in favour of the customer.
As for BMW keeping an eye out on the forum - its hard enough for the moderators to watch the flow of each thread. Surely you don't expect BMW GB to watch every thread also? I have no idea of the frequency of their visits to the site, nor do I know of any member who is a representative of BMW.
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Jack735 wrote:
Perhaps complaints should be somehow be addressed to a group (not necessarily moderators because I can appreciate how busy you guys are!) who would then, not vetting the complaint, copy it to the dealership and BMW GB for a response within say 3 weeks. After that time, unless resolved to each parties satisfaction, both complaint and response(s) would be posted. |
Thats why I thought it would be a reasonable idea to bring 'any' complaints to their attention and give them time to respond.
If there are any dealers looking in, or anyone from BMW UK/AG, or anyone who vaguely represents anything to do with BMW, Dr. H. Panke?, please make themself known.
We wont bite
OK, maybe just a nibble
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kbannon
Admin Group
E39 525i Sport Individual
Joined: 09-October-2002
Location: 64 Zoo Lane
Status: Offline
Points: 15508
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Posted: 28-March-2006 at 10:13 |
Just to answer a few points:- the forum is public but that does not mean that the dealer is aware that the allegation is now public - should every dealer scour the internet daily just in case there is something about them? The dealer in question or any dealer is free to express their side of the story but until we can be sure that they can place their side of the story in the public domain, it will always be a one sided argument in favour of the customer.
As for BMW keeping an eye out on the forum - its hard enough for the moderators to watch the flow of each thread. Surely you don't expect BMW GB to watch every thread also? I have no idea of the frequency of their visits to the site, nor do I know of any member who is a representative of BMW.
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Current: 2009 E60 520d "Sport" tractor Previous: 1989 E30 320i SE 1997 E39 523i 2003 E39 525i Sport Individual
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m3tiko
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 29-May-2005
Location: Braveheart Country..aka Pai
Status: Offline
Points: 1483
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Posted: 28-March-2006 at 09:50 |
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335d evolve 354bhp/742nm....M3 SEE YA!!
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Fey!
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Funs over, Scotty; beam down my clothes!
Joined: 28-February-2005
Location: Galway
Status: Offline
Points: 4161
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Posted: 28-March-2006 at 06:59 |
540 V8 - hope it gets worked out
Peter - spot on about the bad customer.
Someone mentioned that a club should work for it's members, not it's sponsors. That is spot on.
If the club is sponsored by BMW, and the forum is the main outlet for members views, then surely someone in BMW keeps an eye out for threads like this so that they can respond. Or, seeing as the majority of us drive cars over 4 years old which the dealers wouldn't sell from their forecourts, are we not important enough to them, despite a lot of people here using them for parts and servicing?
I'm lucky - I find that my local dealer is very good, and I've been treated very well on my rare visits to them. But I have had bad service from garages in the past (as I did when I bought my e39), and it is very frustrating. The guy I was dealing with there used the line that the car I was buying was €60,000 when new, but I was getting it for €12,000 (it was a 7 year old car with 69k at that stage!), so I shouldn't complain!!!
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Fushion Julz
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 27-May-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 400
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Posted: 28-March-2006 at 06:58 |
Just seen this thread and I'm astonished...
1. Who says that the dealer and/or BMW GB haven't the right to reply?
This is a public forum and it is for them also, as well as us mere
mortals.
2. A bad customer? Lol...BMW may do well to remember that if they don't
want a customer (or any customer) then Audi or Mercedes will, I'm sure,
be grateful for the extra business!
3. So the club is not independant, but is a subsidiary of BMW GB?
Didn't realise, but I'll bear that in mind when renewing my
membership!! (if I do).
4. If the club is a subsidiary of BMW and the dealers can exert
pressure on their supplier to cover up poor customer service, then why
can't BMW GB exert pressure on the dealers to honour the discount for
club members? As it is, my local dealer (who are, apparantly, owned by
BMW GB) refuse to countenance any discount and actually laughed at me
when I asked...Nice....Needless to say, they no longer get my business.
@540v8...I do hope your friend gets satisfaction from the dealer who,
despite not being named here, should feel humiliated by the standard of
aftercare offered.
Although I must say that, if you work for the commercial Merc dealer I
think you do, then they aren't all that much better...refusing to
supply a workshop manual for my 609D....and being condescending with it!
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1987 E30 M3
1996 E36 328i SE 4dr (Manual)
1992 E34 525iX Touring...SOLD
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540 V8
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Lick my badge
Joined: 07-December-2005
Location: Running the asylum
Status: Offline
Points: 2280
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Posted: 28-March-2006 at 06:04 |
*** UPDATE ***
The dealer principal has recieved a letter of complaint for the ongoing saga. He is out of the office at the moment but will contact my friend in due course. BMW GB has also recieved a copy of the letter. Lets hope BMW can polish their tarnished reputation with this guy and spring into action. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks for all your comments, it's always good to know that you in a majority when it comes down to issues suchas this one. It's made interesting reading!
Cheers chaps
Mike
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Current:E34 540i Touring 6 speed manual(Mpower bodykit & suspension)& Chrysler Voyager 3.3 V6 auto
Previous:E34 530iSE AC Schnitzer suspension.
E28 525e auto-Standard
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 27-August-2003
Location: Lost somewhere in time...
Status: Offline
Points: 6484
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Posted: 28-March-2006 at 04:11 |
dirtybeemer wrote:
Can you explain a bad customer nigel ?
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LOL. I can have a go at that one mate
A bad customer is one who has unrealistic expectations of what is possible. Then when these unrealistic expectations are not met thet kick up a fuss. My wife has to deal with the genreal public, customers of the newspaper she works for. You would be amazed just how unreasonable some people can be. I'm sure the same goes for some customers of main dealers.
As far as I can see, the big problem with allowing people to put complaints about dealers on the site is down to the following:-
How do any of us know that the complaint is valid? that is it not just made up because of a grudge, an ex employee etc? or that the customer just had totaly unrealistic expectations. Sure you can give them the chance to respond, but unless you have total transparency, i.e the name and address of the complainant published, then it is not going to work. Otherwise it makes it too easy for people to anonymously slag off dealers with no comeback. If anything untrue is wrttten the website can be sued for libel. By making complainants give their details it will put people off making unjust statements.
Just my 2p worth
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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beast535
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 16-June-2005
Location: cardiff though wish i was in dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 254
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Posted: 28-March-2006 at 02:44 |
Isn't a club supposed to work for its members, not its sponsors? Surely BMW UK doesn't own all the dealers- they are all independently owned. If there is poor service the dealer should be named here. Otherwise whats the point in any business offering good service if they do not get increased custom from this? The club needs to grow a backbone and stand up for itself.
I know the club may need the sponsorship but insisting that threads like this be edited has cost them my membership fee for next year.
Dave.
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E30 325i sport 1991
E34 530i auto 1989
E39 535i 18"s 1997
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Jack735
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 14-September-2005
Location: Edinburgh
Status: Offline
Points: 1055
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Posted: 28-March-2006 at 02:29 |
Right with you dirtybeemer.
When I spend a good pound I expect to get what they are selling as described. So if I was to spend 20,000 perfect pounds on a brand new perfect car thats exactly what I would expect. 20,000 perfect pounds >>> one perfect car, as described!
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dirtybeemer
Really Senior Member II
1996 P E39 523i se
Joined: 29-January-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 563
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Posted: 27-March-2006 at 18:52 |
jack735 wrote :- I would say a bad customer is one who complains unreasonably.
Hi Jack this isnt a dig or anything just merely another point of view, as you know that these cars when new cost more then what some people earn in a year, and if you buy one and are plagued by endless faults then i dont think any complaint or any amout of complaining makes you a bad customer in the slightest, if i spent that sort of money on a car then i would expect it to be perfect, not a lemon.
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kbannon
Admin Group
E39 525i Sport Individual
Joined: 09-October-2002
Location: 64 Zoo Lane
Status: Offline
Points: 15508
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Posted: 27-March-2006 at 18:41 |
Just for the record - the club receives some kind of 'sponsorship' from BMW GB. The forum does not. Any revenue generated by the forum is purely through the adverts.
Anyhow, in terms of organising a lobby via the club - why not ask the club office about it?
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Current: 2009 E60 520d "Sport" tractor Previous: 1989 E30 320i SE 1997 E39 523i 2003 E39 525i Sport Individual
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Jack735
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 14-September-2005
Location: Edinburgh
Status: Offline
Points: 1055
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Posted: 27-March-2006 at 18:29 |
Nigel wrote:
Jack
You make very valid points.
I welcome your suggestion that perhaps the club should be involved, I don't fancy your chances, but the agm is coming up, fancy giving it a go ?
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Thank you, dirtybeemer and 540 V8.
Saw the bit for the AGM but couldn’t make the date and it’s a bit far away anyway.
As for individuals, like me, contacting BMW UK at Bracknell. In my opinion BMW UK/AG should/would probably appreciate a single point of contact through this club rather than many individual complaints to deal with - or unhappy customers discussing poor workmanship on forums where they have no right of reply. I would also hope a complaint made through this club, with a forum membership of almost 8,000 and sponsorship, would carry more clout .
From something I read some time ago it was the clout of a large group in the States who pressured BMW USA to make good the common pixel problem in the E38. Individuals over here are getting no where.
Good night!
I would say a bad customer is one who complains unreasonably.
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Nigel
Moderator Group
Joined: 09-November-2002
Status: Offline
Points: 6941
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Posted: 27-March-2006 at 18:05 |
Cheers Mike
Good luck, I'm on your side...honest.
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Best Wishes
Nigel
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540 V8
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Lick my badge
Joined: 07-December-2005
Location: Running the asylum
Status: Offline
Points: 2280
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Posted: 27-March-2006 at 18:02 |
Jack735 wrote:
I am a bit sorry to learn that because the site is sponsored by BMW GB it is felt that the members of the forum cannot truthfully criticise shoddy workmanship by BMW, where it exists, or in fact other suppliers of services. I would be surprised if BMW would like to be seen in such a way. It is widely recognised that it is those companies who listen and learn from mistakes that keep customers happy and profits up. BMW couldn’t produce such fantastic cars. Absolutely agree that anyone criticised anywhere, including here, should have the right to reply.
Perhaps complaints should be somehow be addressed to a group (not necessarily moderators because I can appreciate how busy you guys are!) who would then, not vetting the complaint, copy it to the dealership and BMW GB for a response within say 3 weeks. After that time, unless resolved to each parties satisfaction, both complaint and response(s) would be posted.
[Register of interest(?)
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Here, here! I pretty much agree with everyones opinions on here so far. Am I to gather from general views that this club is run to 'enhance' the 'correct' views that we are supposed to hear or to let the 'public' air their 'honest' views and opinions. I might have to ponder that one before renewing my membership.
I'm all for a right to reply and would welcome any channel for this to take place. I agree that int's unfair to accuse and not be given a fair trial, but as I'm not allowed to name, the dealer responsible cannot reply? where do we go from here. Thanks for the number for BMW GB. It will go there for further investigation for sure. In the mean time, my friend is trying to sell his 'Friday afternoon car' but everytime he goes to advertise, something goes wrong with it! Ever heard of a haunted car??
Regards
Mike
P.S. I'll try and give you guys a progress report when action is taken.
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Current:E34 540i Touring 6 speed manual(Mpower bodykit & suspension)& Chrysler Voyager 3.3 V6 auto
Previous:E34 530iSE AC Schnitzer suspension.
E28 525e auto-Standard
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dirtybeemer
Really Senior Member II
1996 P E39 523i se
Joined: 29-January-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 563
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Posted: 27-March-2006 at 17:29 |
Nigel wrote :- I have no knowledge of either the dealer or the poster, I'm sure there are poor dealers, I also know there are poor customers.
Can you explain a bad customer nigel ?
KBannon wrote :- As already mentioned, one bad experience doesn't make a bad dealer.
we will never get to know will we if we cant put the names of the garage where the bad experiance has taken place, thus getting a build up against them, there might have been twenty people on this forum that has had a bad experiance with this garage but dont know because the name has been starred out.
jack735 wrote :- I am a bit sorry to learn that because the site is sponsored by BMW GB it is felt that the members of the forum cannot truthfully criticise shoddy workmanship by BMW, where it exists, or in fact other suppliers of services. I would be surprised if BMW would like to be seen in such a way. It is widely recognised that it is those companies who listen and learn from mistakes that keep customers happy and profits up. BMW couldn’t produce such fantastic cars (I am honoured to be an owner of a 735 and feel privileged, ooh isn‘t Joanna Lovely nice) without such an ethos.
Absolutely agree that anyone criticised anywhere, including here, should have the right to reply.
Perhaps complaints should be somehow be addressed to a group (not necessarily moderators because I can appreciate how busy you guys are!) who would then, not vetting the complaint, copy it to the dealership and BMW GB for a response within say 3 weeks. After that time, unless resolved to each parties satisfaction, both complaint and response(s) would be posted.
totally agree with you on this point
I had a post pulled a few months ago about an engine supplier who basically didn't supply but still charged, £2+k. Only very aggressive posturing from me to them and the credit card company stopped me being ripped off. I truly hope that no-one from here has since been ripped off by them or had to go through what I did.]
I also agree with this point aswell.
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Nigel
Moderator Group
Joined: 09-November-2002
Status: Offline
Points: 6941
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Posted: 27-March-2006 at 17:04 |
Jack
You make very valid points.
I really am only a moderator, I have the power to pull your posts ( as long as your not too high up!), but thats all, I'm a nobody as far as the club is concerned.
Bracknell, and the number has been kindly posted on here, is the place to go.
I welcome your suggestion that perhaps the club should be involved, I don't fancy your chances, but the agm is coming up, fancy giving it a go ?
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Best Wishes
Nigel
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Jack735
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 14-September-2005
Location: Edinburgh
Status: Offline
Points: 1055
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Posted: 27-March-2006 at 16:41 |
Nigel and Killian
I am a bit sorry to learn that because the site is sponsored by BMW GB it is felt that the members of the forum cannot truthfully criticise shoddy workmanship by BMW, where it exists, or in fact other suppliers of services. I would be surprised if BMW would like to be seen in such a way. It is widely recognised that it is those companies who listen and learn from mistakes that keep customers happy and profits up. BMW couldn’t produce such fantastic cars (I am honoured to be an owner of a 735 and feel privileged, ooh isn‘t Joanna Lovely nice) without such an ethos.
Absolutely agree that anyone criticised anywhere, including here, should have the right to reply.
Perhaps complaints should be somehow be addressed to a group (not necessarily moderators because I can appreciate how busy you guys are!) who would then, not vetting the complaint, copy it to the dealership and BMW GB for a response within say 3 weeks. After that time, unless resolved to each parties satisfaction, both complaint and response(s) would be posted.
Regards
Jack
[Register of interest(?)
I had a post pulled a few months ago about an engine supplier who basically didn't supply but still charged, £2+k. Only very aggressive posturing from me to them and the credit card company stopped me being ripped off. I truly hope that no-one from here has since been ripped off by them or had to go through what I did.]
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kbannon
Admin Group
E39 525i Sport Individual
Joined: 09-October-2002
Location: 64 Zoo Lane
Status: Offline
Points: 15508
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Posted: 27-March-2006 at 15:56 |
As already mentioned, one bad experience doesn't make a bad dealer. I don't doubt the quality (or lack thereof) of the service recieved but until the dealer has the opportunity to respond, it wouldn't be a fair trial.
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Current: 2009 E60 520d "Sport" tractor Previous: 1989 E30 320i SE 1997 E39 523i 2003 E39 525i Sport Individual
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