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stephenperry View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2006 at 14:34
and please upload some photos

    2007 Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCI Titanium X Auto

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    2000 Alpina B10 3.3 #118
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alpinalover View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2006 at 15:02

Hi Stephen,

Gerhard at Alpina knows the car well and as far as he is concerned it also was the first RHD ever made. Having read some of the other postings in the string I can understand where the confusion lies. The E28 with an engine transplant and a few nice Alpina accessories looks a lovely car and all credit to the current owner for spending so much money on it. However it's NOT an Alpina - and I'm not just being a "bloody purist". Respect the car for what it is - a highly modified, superbly made BMW. I do consider that the sales pitch on Ebay is highly misleading though - firstly it's not an authentic Alpina and secondly it certainly wasn't the first Alpina in the UK. If I bought this car from that description and then found this forum I'd be going straight to Trading Standards.

If you would like me to upload pics of my B9 I'd be happy to do so (but someone will have to advise me how to do it!). I told you I was new to all this.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2006 at 15:05

have a look here for instructions

http://www.bmwcarclubforum.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=5485&am p;PN=1

or alternatively, email them to me (stephen@perry1976.demon.co.uk) and i'll post them up for you instead


    2007 Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCI Titanium X Auto

    1983 Ford Sierra XR4i
    2000 Alpina B10 3.3 #118
    1999 BMW 323Ci
    1995 BMW 318i SE
    1994 Vauxhall Omega 2.0 GLS
    1995 Ford Mondeo 1.8 LX
    1990 Honda Concerto 1.6 EX
    1986 Ford Orion 1.6 GL
    1989 Ford Fiesta 1.1 Firefly
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alpinalover View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2006 at 15:08

Thanks Stephen, I'll look out some interesting ones and e-mail them to you, probably tomorrow night.

Les

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2006 at 17:51
Originally posted by alpinalover alpinalover wrote:

Hi Stephen,


Gerhard at Alpina knows the car well and as far as
he is concerned it also was the first RHD ever made.
Having read some of the other postings in the string
I can understand where the confusion lies. The E28
with an engine transplant and a few nice Alpina
accessories looks a lovely car and all credit to the
current owner for spending so much money on it.
However it's NOT an Alpina - and I'm not just being a
"bloody purist". Respect the car for what it is - a
highly modified, superbly made BMW. I do consider
that the sales pitch on Ebay is highly misleading
though - firstly it's not an authentic Alpina and
secondly it certainly wasn't the first Alpina in the UK.
If I bought this car from that description and then
found this forum I'd be going straight to Trading
Standards.


If you would like me to upload pics of my B9 I'd be
happy to do so (but someone will have to advise me
how to do it!). I told you I was new to all
this.



Oh Dear - this sounds like the over emotional
rantings of someone who has been conned.The red
Alpina B9 WTO 50Y on Ebay IS the very, very first
RHD Alpina B9 built by Sytners and is the very first
Alpina car built by Sytners - no question about it, just
pure fact. Previous Alpinas were screwed together by
TWR ay the Motor Sport Centre near Berinsfield just
south of Oxford on the old Reading road. Following a
lot of research with Alpina and Sytners last year (I
have seen the build records at Nottingham) I can
confirm WTO 50Y is THE FIRST RHD B9 3.5 E28.
The second B9 built was XNU 120Y which is the
black press car. I suspect our 'Alpinaloving' friend
has this car, which everybody thought was the first
one. In fact it is the SECOND car built and the car
used by the press. By the time XNU 120Y was built in
early 1983, WTO 50Y (November 1982 conversion
date) had been built and sold to it's first private
owner.

So there!!
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Drew540i View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2006 at 18:04
As an aside, I spoke to Alpinalover last year on the
phone at some length - remember me now old boy?
I did point out that as well as being converted some
3 months before his car, the (genuine, confirmed by
Sytners......) build plaque number is the one
immediately preceding his (WTO 50Y is 5-195, XNU
120Y is 5-196). Trust me, I know this car intimately
and have seen every bit of paperwork for it.

No, I am not the owner.

I spoke at length to the very first owner of WTO as
well as Brian Bradley (BMW Car Club CSL/track day
bloke) who bought the car in 1984 from Sytners as a
used car. Fake? I don't think so. Sorry, but you really
shouldn't publicly slate another car as being non
genuine - how would you feel if we did it to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2006 at 18:35

Hi guys, to butt in on this debate! I would say that information either way is now a bit patchy on Alpina (sytners records), and your right Drew, no need to slate anyone here! We're a club for goodness sake! I would only value a car on condition only, theres so many cars been messed about with, over 20 years your never sure! I would suggest anyone really interested in any variant, to do the norm, inspect, test drive and check all receipts serv hist etc, and go from there. (I'll butt out now.

Donnie

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2006 at 20:22

OOH! Steady boys, your claws are showing! Firstly, I have the original letter from Sytners to me confirming that my car is the first complete Alpina B9 build - on Sytner letterhead, sent by the then head of Sales in 1990 when I bought the car. Secondly, as I have previously mentioned, my car is very well known by Alpina GMBH, and they have also confirmed that it is the first one built as an Alpina B9 3.5 to Alpina factory spec. They were particularly pleased to hear that it was still going strong and was going to be fully restored this year.

There were some other Alpina hybrids made by Sytner using partially modified 528's and I'm not the only person that doesn't consider these hybrids as true Alpinas, nice cars though they are. An engine transplant, a spoiler kit, some nice wheels and a few decals doesn't make it a true Alpina. Ask Buchloe what they consider to be a true Alpina.

Oh and by the way Drew, I've never spoken to you before in my life, either in person or on the web so I don't know who you're confusing me with. Also your suspicions that I have XNU 120Y are incorrect - guess again!

In the past 16 years since I bought my Alpina B9 I've looked after it, raced it, toured Europe in it and enjoyed every minute that I've driven it. I avoided joining clubs and forums, after a racetrack day with Club 89, when I met some senior members of one of the owners clubs and found them to be pompous bores. I came into this forum tonight with an open mind and a potential problem looking for a little help and clarification. What I got was help from one very positive member and a very bitchy response from another. I am an "Alpinalover" and proud of it, which is why I waited for my car to come on the market via Sytners, from it's very first owner. I don't think I was conned, but perhaps some people need to get real about what makes a real Alpina.

I think I'll fade back into obscurity now and enjoy my Alpina in peace.

Arms Out

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2006 at 07:50

Pack your hand bags away now girls

It`s only a car

Previous:

E36 318is coupe, E36 323i coupe, E30 316 saloon, E30 318 saloon, E46 330ci Sport Conv
E92 325d M Sport(3.0),With Loads of gadgets

Current:
116i Sport F20
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stephenperry View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2006 at 10:01
Originally posted by Pete330 Pete330 wrote:

Pack your hand bags away now girls

It`s only a car

On the contrary, it's refreshing to see some really enthusiastic owners



Edited by stephenperry

    2007 Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCI Titanium X Auto

    1983 Ford Sierra XR4i
    2000 Alpina B10 3.3 #118
    1999 BMW 323Ci
    1995 BMW 318i SE
    1994 Vauxhall Omega 2.0 GLS
    1995 Ford Mondeo 1.8 LX
    1990 Honda Concerto 1.6 EX
    1986 Ford Orion 1.6 GL
    1989 Ford Fiesta 1.1 Firefly
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2006 at 14:16
Alpinalover - go and lie down in a dark room before
you start to actually believe your own nonsense! I like
the way your story changes now from your car being
'first RHD' to 'first B9' !

I really don't care what silly letter you have from
Sytners/Alpina/Jackanory. You have come here,
claiming that what has been PROVEN to be the very
first Sytner built RHD B9 is fake. You also claim that
any Alpina built by Sytners is not a real Alpina
despite the fact that Sytner did exactly what Alpina in
Buchloe did - take a stock 528i and fit a collection of
go faster bits.

Now kindly go away until you have something worth
saying - sadly for you, you're talking to people who
know their subject and have not been taken in by
some (ficticious??) letter. . Please do fade
away into obcurity! I don't think anyone here likes
your snotty, elitist tone. I shall of course pass your
comments onto Kris at Buchloe...........

I also note you haven't made any reference to any I.D
of your car.........how predictable!!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2006 at 14:42
Now now ladies, there's an honourable way to settle this dispute before it turns into a full blown flame war, and before we have to get the moderators in, and that's...

Handbags at dawn!

Sorry to be a little flippant about this, but whilst the debate about who's Alpina is more original than who's I think we all need to have a sit down in a darkened room, and count to ten. As Pete330 said "It's only a car". Whilst I can understand people being passionate about their chariots, there's no need to get personal! Oh, and for the record, I drive an original E46 325 Sport, one of umpteen made in the world, chassis number whatever... none of which distracts from an entertaining and engaging car that I love driving every single day... or sometimes just sitting on the black leather sports seats when I'm parked up at home... but hey, that's just me!

Chill out guys, please!
James

2001 Y Reg 325 Sport
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M3AG View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2006 at 15:29
I think Andy's car was the first that was produced at Sytners and consequently sold here in the UK under the name B9, where as yours was probably produced IN Germany and sold over here just before the Sytner run....


"There were some other Alpina hybrids made by Sytner using partially modified 528's and I'm not the only person that doesn't consider these hybrids as true Alpinas, nice cars though they are. An engine transplant, a spoiler kit, some nice wheels and a few decals doesn't make it a true Alpina. Ask Buchloe what they consider to be a true Alpina"


Are you referring to the cars produced at Sytners using Alpina parts? Or the B2.8' B3.5's etc etc which were cosmetic cars produced for the UK market?
I imagine that mentioning the engine swap you're referring to the B9's and B10's that Sytners produced. Well according to the likes of Ged Scanlon and Frank Sytner, these cars ARE genuine Alpina cars, after all they use genuine Alpina parts shipped directly from Buchloe, and are fitted by Alpina trained techs. Even Alpina in Germany class these as genuine Alpina cars, The only difference is they don't list or note he chassis numbers of the cars 'modified', this is/was controlled by the countries supplier- Sytners.. After all what's the difference wether the car is altered from the shell at Sytners or in Buchloe? Sytners do nothing different to what Alpina did!
I own a genuine B10 e23, it is a Sytner car, and it IS recognised as genuine Alpina by Buchloe and confirmed as such by Sytners. However Alpina in Germany only produced the e23 up to B9 form, but gave permission for Frank Sytner to develop his own cars based on Alpina's engineering back up. This car was the alternative to BMW's own 745i and was argueagbly superior in performnace to the Bavarian produced car. So is this just a hybrid car? I don't think so.

However saying the above, I have to agree with James, should keep our opinions to ourselves, friendly banter maybe to start with, but this can easily become a very heated arguement, especially over a subject such as this.

AG
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-March-2006 at 00:05

Right - Final posting and this ones especially for Drew540i - just to put the record straight.

Drew in one of your postings you say -

"Fake? I don't think so. Sorry, but you really
shouldn't publicly slate another car as being non
genuine - how would you feel if we did it to you?"

I did not call the car a fake in ANY of my postings - you introduced this term to try misrepresent my viewpoint. Nor did I slate the car, quite the contrary. Here's what I did say -

" it looks a lovely car and all credit to the current owner for spending so much money on it. "

Not quite the way you've paraphrased my viewpoint is it?

It was Mallorcaman who said -

“It is a beautiful car, but is not an Alpina "B anything." &

"It is not an Alpina though, and I think the advert is misleading.”

This was supported by Chas C who said -

"The advert description is fair if you know what you're looking at but could be misleading if you don't."

Even donniebmwm535 THE OWNER OF THE CAR said -

"Although not regarded as a true Alpina, the car is original"

And ALL of these comments were made before I even made my first posting!

My first concern and the question in my first posting was regarding the "claim that it was the first Alpina built by Sytners and hence the first in the UK."

Your highly sarcastic response to me was -

"You have come here, claiming that what has been PROVEN to be the very first Sytner built RHD B9 is fake. You also claim that any Alpina built by Sytners is not a real Alpina despite the fact that Sytner did exactly what Alpina in Buchloe did "

Please get your facts right before you start hurling abuse!

As I've stated if you read my postings I never called Gavins Alpina a fake nor did I claim "any Alpina built by Sytners is not a real Alpina " - they are embellishments that only exist in your mind. The point I made is that apart from the Alpinas that Sytner did make to the full Alpina spec, there were also quite a few partial conversions, some only cosmetic, which were not true Alpinas. (Frank wasn't stupid and new there was some money to be made from partial conversions, body kits and decals.)

Now regarding that abuse - you tell me to go away, go and lie down, stop talking nonsense and finally acuse me of having a snotty, elitist tone! Not very friendly or polite to a Newbie and again a perception that exists more in your mind than in the text of my postings. I don't think I insulted you once - what a missed opportunity.

Finally your sarcasm is directed at the letter I got from Sytners - you call it a silly letter, a Jackanory story and then imply it is fictitious. Believe me Drew it's real - I'm looking at it right now - and it's not a silly letter, it's a piece of history.

It states that my car Alpina B9, build number 5 - 192, registration WRC 858Y, is the first RHD Alpina built and sold in the UK.

So there you have it.

To all of you that sent me private messages of welcome to the Forum and asking for more info - many thanks, your politeness and kindness are appreciated.

To Gavin (owner of the Ebay car) - best of luck with the Ebay sale, I see it's going up slowly, if I had a few grand spare I'd bid on it myself. I hope it goes to a real Alpina lover.

To Drew - with your talents for selective reading, misrepresentation and trying to turn a difference of viewpoint into a full blown slanging match, you really ought to be working as a politician or a news reporter.

Goodnight all - Over & out.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-March-2006 at 11:15
You wrote:

Originally posted by alpinalover alpinalover wrote:

The E28 with an engine
transplant and a few nice Alpina accessories looks a
lovely car...............However it's NOT an
Alpina...........Respect the car for what it is - a highly
modified, superbly made BMW firstly it's not an
authentic Alpina



Why don't you get lost mate? You've been caught out
and don't have the good manners to admit that you
were wrong. Read what you yourself wrote!

As for being 'snotty', well anyone who comes here
and says that an Alpina built by Sytners isn't the real
thing is just an idiot.
BTW according to Sytners, WRC 858Y is a standard
black 528i with sports seats and an Alpina steering
wheel..............I just rang someone I know there and
checked!


.......make of that what you will Gentlemen!

Edited by Drew540i
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-March-2006 at 11:53
Oh and by the way, trying to wriggle out of the
argument by pretending to talk about Donnie's car
doesn't cut it I'm afraid.

You know perfectly well what car you were talking
about.

By the way I've got a can of Halfords de-icer here,
along with a letter from Halfords saying it was the
very first one. Honest.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-March-2006 at 13:17
Well wasn't this a helpful and illuminating discussion about the provenance of Alpinas in the UK... No, it wasn't. It's a little depressing to realise just how quickly we can resort to mud slinging and the kind of reasoned debate that I thought we'd left in the school playground.

Ask yourselves this - have we explored the provenance of the car in question, and thereby added anything to our collective understanding of Alpinas and the variety of ways in which they were built / modified? No we have not. What have we done? We've employed the "I'm more right than you" style of argument and advanced things not one jot. And do you know what? Who cares about the car in question now? I for one was very interested in following this topic, as I know nowt about Alpinas other than (a)they're sex on tyres, and (b)I wanted one. Now all I know is that there appears to be even more oneupmanship amongst Alpina owners and I'm not sure I'd want to be part of that.
James

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-March-2006 at 13:19

Drew, What planet are you on??? I really haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about!

This whole debate is starting to get surreal and just a little boring.

Firstly you claim to have had a conversation with me about my car, "last year old boy", when in fact it wasn't me or even my car. I've never met or spoken to you before or to any member of the BMW Owners or Car club in the past 10-15 years. Are you confusing me with a guy you've argued with before? - that might explain why you started off with such an aggressive and insulting tone. Is this because you've had a previous run in with an "alpinalover" who had a "snotty elitist tone". If that's the case it's not me - I only took the name "alpinalover" 3 days ago when I registered to get on this forum.

Secondly, you now say that I'm not talking about Donnie' car at all (the one on Ebay), but another one! What car is that supposed to be Drew?? Cos I don't know. This whole string was a discussion about the E28 Alpina that was on Ebay (Donnie's/Gavin's car). What other car could I be referring to?

What's next Drew, are you going to claim that I assassinated Kennedy?

At the end of the day Drew we are two enthusiasts that share a passion for the same marque of car. Why can't you respect that someone else may have a different opinion to yourself without becoming rude and sarcastic. My belief that my Alpina is the first B9 built and sold in the UK is based on written confirmation from Sytner (from a time when they would actually confirm the pedigree of a car in writing, which they haven't done now for several years) and 17 years of owning the car (including numerous conversations with Alpina GMBH and Sytners). Your final insult about it being based on a Sytner keyring because you had checked with BMW was laughable. What was your source? It certainly wasn't Ged Scanlon or Lucy Monro at Sytners (01159341414) with whom I had a couple of very interesting conversations this afternoon. Funny, they didn't remember you or your extensive inspection of the build records at Nottingham last year? However, they did state that nobody was allowed to inspect the build records or have copies of either their own car OR anybody elses, because of past problems with liabilities for false claims - and that that had been the situation for some years. If that is the case how did you manage your extensive research without their permission or cooperation.

What I have established is that my car, build 5- 192, was the first true RHD Alpina B9 sold in the UK. The confirmation letter also says "built", but what has come to light is that my car may have been specially prebuilt and tuned in Buchloe and sent across to Sytners for "finishing" as it was the car used at the UK launch. If, and I say again if, that is the case and Sytners chose to interpret this as "built" in the UK for commercial reasons, that may explain some of the confusion. They certainly wouldn't release the first RHD Alpina B9 to the press and then sheepishly confess that it had actually been built in Germany would they?

The situation now is that if ANY early Alpina owner contacts Sytners requesting confirmation that their car is a genuine Alpina (made to full Alpina spec, not just cosmetic) they will get the basic information (Chassis no., spec, date of first registration, etc) but with it will come a specific disclaimer that Sytners are not prepared to confirm the authenticity of any Alpina not bought as new. Whatsmore, because of the time required to go through the old written (non-computerised) records, Sytners have to raise a charge of Ł50 plus VAT.

My confirmation letter was given to me when I first bought the car 17 years ago, when Sytners weren't so concerned with potential claims and liabilities, and when the majority of the sales and workshop staff were actually working there when the first B9's were built. In the absence of any clear evidence to the contrary I'd say that's pretty conclusive.

Hopefully, if I offer to sign any discalimers or waivers, I may be able to persuade contacts at Sytner, BMW and Alpina to confirm whether my car was prebuilt and tuned in Germany and just "finished" by Sytners or whether as the letter says it was the first Alpina B9 built and sold in the UK. I'm not looking to sue anybody, just trying to find out a bit more about my prize possession.

Drew - I can't begin to understand why you got so aggressive and insulting, particularly about a subject that actually didn't concern you directly. I don't know you from Adam and your friends probably think your a nice guy. However, if you ever find yourself in South Hertfordshire on a sunny Sunday afternoon in Summer let me know - I'll meet you for a pint and show you my B9.

Over & out.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-March-2006 at 14:39
Originally posted by JamesRFortune JamesRFortune wrote:

Now all I know is that there appears to be even more oneupmanship amongst Alpina owners and I'm not sure I'd want to be part of that.


Not all of us are like it though James. Personally I'm just happy to see another surface. They are disappearing at an alarming rate of knots as time and owners who can ill afford them are destroying the cars through rust and bodges.
You have to get one when you are ready to, std BMWs are excellent, but an Alpina product is even more so.

This topic has got way out of hand, regardless of how or why, I think we need to end it. Drew, come on, we can draw a line against this can't we? Surely if there is a grievence it needs to be done outside of the forum.
How about a meet up to discuss these things, name a pub and we'll try and tie it all up?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-March-2006 at 14:45
Originally posted by M3AG M3AG wrote:

Not all of us are like it though James. Personally I'm just happy to see another surface. They are disappearing at an alarming rate of knots as time and owners who can ill afford them are destroying the cars through rust and bodges.


I'm sure, I was simply making a point about how quickly a fairly interesting discussion had degenerated into a slagging match, with ego being much more important than the truth. <sigh>

Still, I'd chew my own arm off for an Alpina! Here's a question: despite the fact that I run an e46 325 Sport (mmmm....) I have a deep love of the original 6 series especially the 635 Highline. Did Alpina ever make a version? Now that would be worth munching some arm for!
James

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