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spokey View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 19:02
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:


What steps have they taken to address the problem that they are part of (though they don't like to think they are) ?
Let me guess. Forget about speeding blah blah blah, not persecuting motorists blah blah.


How about: "make the driving test more rigorous"?
How about: "make the driving test a bi-annual event"?
How about: "make the driving test include things like skid pan car control"?

Unlike you livvy, I'm fully aware that my driving style is not perfect.

Making drivers more lazy and more stupid might mask the symptoms, it does little to address the root cause.


Edited by spokey
Ciao,
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 18:53
OK, here's a question..

If everyone on the road is expected to be able to drive to a safe standard that would make scameras (and livvy ) unnecessary - then why isn't this implemented in the national driving licence say upto some sort of IAM standard?
(I still say it should be compulsary for learners to go through a DL196 course - CBT to the younger ones here)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 18:35
Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:


The people who are qualified to assess people's driving aren't doing a very good job, based on my little sojourn today.

Perhaps it's time they started listening to the unqualified people who pay their salary.


And what new positive steps do the unqualified offer to address our problems ?
What steps have they taken to address the problem that they are part of (though they don't like to think they are) ?
Let me guess. Forget about speeding blah blah blah, not persecuting motorists blah blah.


Edited by livvy
My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 18:31
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:


And with the skills our road users display daily, nannying is what they require.


The state, font of all good things, knows best, eh?

(Except when it comes to the hospitals, for which they are actually directly responsible.)


The people qualified to assess people's driving, are in a good position to pass judgement on that yes.
Perhaps better than those who are not so qualified, but like to offer & their authoritive opinion anyway.



The people who are qualified to assess people's driving aren't doing a very good job, based on my little sojourn today.

Perhaps it's time they started listening to the unqualified people who pay their salary.
Ciao,
Spokey

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 18:25
Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:


And with the skills our road users display daily, nannying is what they require.


The state, font of all good things, knows best, eh?

(Except when it comes to the hospitals, for which they are actually directly responsible.)


The people qualified to assess people's driving, are in a good position to pass judgement on that yes.
Perhaps better than those who are not so qualified, but like to offer their authoritive opinion anyway.



Edited by livvy
My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 18:16
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:


And with the skills our road users display daily, nannying is what they require.


The state, font of all good things, knows best, eh?

(Except when it comes to the hospitals, for which they are actually directly responsible.)
Ciao,
Spokey

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 18:09
Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:



It's not only about addressing deaths from speed though.
Look at those measures I pointed out from the upcoming road safety bill & how they realted to speed. Look at the current advertising slogans about tiredness killing. Look at the proposals in the Road Safety bill about provision for more rest areas on some of our motorways etc.


Yes, where it's not about speeding, it's about nannying.


And with the skills our road users display daily, nannying is what they require.
My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 18:07
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:



It's not only about addressing deaths from speed though.
Look at those measures I pointed out from the upcoming road safety bill & how they realted to speed. Look at the current advertising slogans about tiredness killing. Look at the proposals in the Road Safety bill about provision for more rest areas on some of our motorways etc.


Yes, where it's not about speeding, it's about nannying.
Ciao,
Spokey

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 17:59
Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

I don't disagree more should be done about MRSA, I keep saying that.
Ignoring the largely avoidable road deaths doesn't help that at all though. That is the typical response of a driver who gets prosecuted by the Police. "But look at them they were doing worse than me."

Both MRSA & road deaths should be tackled and reduced as much as reasonably possible, as of course should any other causes of preventable unnecessary deaths.


Livvy: if you want to avoid all avoidable road deaths, it's very easy: blanket speed limit of 20MPH. But you've said that doesn't work for you.

There is a huge difference between 225 deaths in an inherently dangerous environment involving fast moving metal and millions of individual, differently skilled drivers on the one hand; and 20,000 avoidable deaths in a supposedly sterile healthcare environment under direct government control.

If they put the same effort that they put into making driving a misery into healthcare they would save a load more people.


It's not 225 deaths though.


225 directly attributable to speed. 1000 if you believe government statistics.

Funny how the ratio is reversed when they are responsible, isn't it?


It's not only about addressing deaths from speed though.
Look at those measures I pointed out from the upcoming road safety bill & how they realted to speed. Look at the current advertising slogans about tiredness killing. Look at the proposals in the Road Safety bill about provision for more rest areas on some of our motorways etc.
My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 17:54
Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

In some cases you are right. However what you are suggesting is that it is possible never to make a mistake again. All we have to do is stop being lazy and selfish. With all due respect this is rubbish. No matrter how carefull and considerate we are we will always make some mistakes. To err is human, and to demonstarate this fact companies, when setting out health and safey policies and procedures, have to take into account that people inherently make mistakes and occaisionally break the rules. And in this case I'm not talking about breaking the rules, I'm talking about a good old honest to god mistake. If you have never made a mistake then you are in a position to critisise. If you have then I'm afraid your not.


But I don't believe you have to make mistakes around safety.
Nobody can perform the perfect drive, that is not without making some small although mainly insignificant (at least as far as safety is concerned) error. You can be trained to perform very very consistantly, with safety always beyond reproach. Trained so that if you adhere to your training you will never have a fault collision & by driving defensively you will be able to avoid the vast majority (save the truely exceptional flukes) that are down to someone elses mistakes.

The simple truth is that few are willing to go that far & make that investment required to address their driving in that manner. To continually search out improvement, continually looking critically at their performance & striving for unattainable perfection. They say they enjoy driving, but it is simple thrills they seek & that's not true, good on road driving in my book. It is possible to enjoy your driving & still remain within our laws, but people are guilty of only equating speed with driving enjoyment. The faster, the bigger the thrill.

If that is how you enjoy your driving then do it on a track, but that's not the same is it. People get bored with teh track & why ? Because there isn't enough danger to it that's why. Speed on the track is ultimately sanitised because of the safety measures. People get their thrill from the danger of interaction on our roads & that is not good, because invariably they are inadequately trained for it, they are not good at it (although they think they are) & they will endanger others lives with it.


Edited by livvy
My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 17:11
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

And so the blame culture we live in starts to go crazy.......

We are more and more turning into a society where mistakes are not allowed to be made. Pretty soon no one will become a nurse or a doctor becaues as soon as they make a mistake, which they will at least once in their careers, they will end up in prison. The same goes for driving. People die on the roads. It's a sad but it's true. The sooner this society learns that there is little to be gained from constantly searching for someone to blame for each and every thing the better. Where already starting to go down the line of sueing the government when service men die in iraq. You can be sued by your post man if he slips on your path and breaks his leg, even if he's delivering unsolicited junk mail. If your in the car with a friend and he crashes you can sue his insurance company for compensation. I was asked why i didn't join the union at work. Because I don't see any point I said. But they will represent you should you wish to take the company to court. imagine it's icey and you slip on the ground next to the cooling tower, the union will cover the cost of sueing the company. But if I slip up outside when it's icey it just one of those things, it's life, accidents happen!! It's insane, a aspect to modern life that I really don't like and this change to the road safety bill is just another example of the same thing.



For blame read responsibility for one's actions & how they affect others.
Some (like doctors & nurses) can at least often claim a noble cause whilst they make mistakes, most drivers can't. It's lazyness in what they do, how they seek to improve themselves & how they regulate their own behaviour/attitudes towards driving. Their driving is often about personal gain & gratification, not selfless.

When we go on a plane or a train we entrust the pilot or driver to operate within the rules for our safe passage, but we as drivers don't do the same for our fellow road users. It's self, self, self, me, me, me. My needs matter nothing else.

In some cases you are right. However what you are suggesting is that it is possible never to make a mistake again. All we have to do is stop being lazy and selfish. With all due respect this is rubbish. No matrter how carefull and considerate we are we will always make some mistakes. To err is human, and to demonstarate this fact companies, when setting out health and safey policies and procedures, have to take into account that people inherently make mistakes and occaisionally break the rules. And in this case I'm not talking about breaking the rules, I'm talking about a good old honest to god mistake. If you have never made a mistake then you are in a position to critisise. If you have then I'm afraid your not.

Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 17:08
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

I don't disagree more should be done about MRSA, I keep saying that.
Ignoring the largely avoidable road deaths doesn't help that at all though. That is the typical response of a driver who gets prosecuted by the Police. "But look at them they were doing worse than me."

Both MRSA & road deaths should be tackled and reduced as much as reasonably possible, as of course should any other causes of preventable unnecessary deaths.


Livvy: if you want to avoid all avoidable road deaths, it's very easy: blanket speed limit of 20MPH. But you've said that doesn't work for you.

There is a huge difference between 225 deaths in an inherently dangerous environment involving fast moving metal and millions of individual, differently skilled drivers on the one hand; and 20,000 avoidable deaths in a supposedly sterile healthcare environment under direct government control.

If they put the same effort that they put into making driving a misery into healthcare they would save a load more people.


It's not 225 deaths though.


225 directly attributable to speed. 1000 if you believe government statistics.

Funny how the ratio is reversed when they are responsible, isn't it?
Ciao,
Spokey

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 16:54
Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:


When we go on a plane or a train we entrust the pilot or driver to operate within the rules for our safe passage, but we as drivers don't do the same for our fellow road users. It's self, self, self, me, me, me. My needs matter nothing else.


Speak for yourself.


I'm willing to abide by the rules, that's speaking for myself.
My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 16:53
Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

I don't disagree more should be done about MRSA, I keep saying that.
Ignoring the largely avoidable road deaths doesn't help that at all though. That is the typical response of a driver who gets prosecuted by the Police. "But look at them they were doing worse than me."

Both MRSA & road deaths should be tackled and reduced as much as reasonably possible, as of course should any other causes of preventable unnecessary deaths.


Livvy: if you want to avoid all avoidable road deaths, it's very easy: blanket speed limit of 20MPH. But you've said that doesn't work for you.

There is a huge difference between 225 deaths in an inherently dangerous environment involving fast moving metal and millions of individual, differently skilled drivers on the one hand; and 20,000 avoidable deaths in a supposedly sterile healthcare environment under direct government control.

If they put the same effort that they put into making driving a misery into healthcare they would save a load more people.


It's not 225 deaths though.


Edited by livvy
My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 16:52
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:


When we go on a plane or a train we entrust the pilot or driver to operate within the rules for our safe passage, but we as drivers don't do the same for our fellow road users. It's self, self, self, me, me, me. My needs matter nothing else.


Speak for yourself.
Ciao,
Spokey

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 16:51
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

I don't disagree more should be done about MRSA, I keep saying that.
Ignoring the largely avoidable road deaths doesn't help that at all though. That is the typical response of a driver who gets prosecuted by the Police. "But look at them they were doing worse than me."

Both MRSA & road deaths should be tackled and reduced as much as reasonably possible, as of course should any other causes of preventable unnecessary deaths.


Livvy: if you want to avoid all avoidable road deaths, it's very easy: blanket speed limit of 20MPH. But you've said that doesn't work for you.

There is a huge difference between 225 deaths in an inherently dangerous environment involving fast moving metal and millions of individual, differently skilled drivers on the one hand; and 20,000 avoidable deaths in a supposedly sterile healthcare environment under direct government control.

If they put the same effort that they put into making driving a misery into healthcare they would save a load more people.
Ciao,
Spokey

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 16:48
Originally posted by Peter Fenwick Peter Fenwick wrote:

And so the blame culture we live in starts to go crazy.......

We are more and more turning into a society where mistakes are not allowed to be made. Pretty soon no one will become a nurse or a doctor becaues as soon as they make a mistake, which they will at least once in their careers, they will end up in prison. The same goes for driving. People die on the roads. It's a sad but it's true. The sooner this society learns that there is little to be gained from constantly searching for someone to blame for each and every thing the better. Where already starting to go down the line of sueing the government when service men die in iraq. You can be sued by your post man if he slips on your path and breaks his leg, even if he's delivering unsolicited junk mail. If your in the car with a friend and he crashes you can sue his insurance company for compensation. I was asked why i didn't join the union at work. Because I don't see any point I said. But they will represent you should you wish to take the company to court. imagine it's icey and you slip on the ground next to the cooling tower, the union will cover the cost of sueing the company. But if I slip up outside when it's icey it just one of those things, it's life, accidents happen!! It's insane, a aspect to modern life that I really don't like and this change to the road safety bill is just another example of the same thing.



For blame read responsibility for one's actions & how they affect others.
Some (like doctors & nurses) can at least often claim a noble cause whilst they make mistakes, most drivers can't. It's lazyness in what they do, how they seek to improve themselves & how they regulate their own behaviour/attitudes towards driving. Their driving is often about personal gain & gratification, not selfless.

When we go on a plane or a train we entrust the pilot or driver to operate within the rules for our safe passage, but we as drivers don't do the same for our fellow road users. It's self, self, self, me, me, me. My needs matter nothing else.
My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 16:41
Originally posted by spokey spokey wrote:

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

The very near future with the Road safety Bill means changes including:-
* doubling of the maximum fine for without due care.
* making driving without proper control & handheld mobile use endorseable offences.
* mandatory disqualification of 6 months for a 2nd offence of dangerous condition within 3 years.
* a new offence of bad driving where death results. (to address people's concerns of where drivers just making a "mistake" kill others & say but I didn't mean it.)



Meanwhile, between 20 and 100 times more people die needlessly in the care of the government without them doing a thing about it.

Those insufferable drivers, eh?


I don't disagree more should be done about MRSA, I keep saying that.
Ignoring the largely avoidable road deaths doesn't help that at all though. That is the typical response of a driver who gets prosecuted by the Police. "But look at them they were doing worse than me."

Both MRSA & road deaths should be tackled and reduced as much as reasonably possible, as of course should any other causes of preventable unnecessary deaths.
My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 16:27

Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:


The very near future with the Road safety Bill means changes including:-
* a new offence of bad driving where death results. (to address people's concerns of where drivers just making a "mistake" kill others & say but I didn't mean it.)

And so the blame culture we live in starts to go crazy.......

We are more and more turning into a society where mistakes are not allowed to be made. Pretty soon no one will become a nurse or a doctor becaues as soon as they make a mistake, which they will at least once in their careers, they will end up in prison. The same goes for driving. People die on the roads. It's a sad but it's true. The sooner this society learns that there is little to be gained from constantly searching for someone to blame for each and every thing the better. Where already starting to go down the line of sueing the government when service men die in iraq. You can be sued by your post man if he slips on your path and breaks his leg, even if he's delivering unsolicited junk mail. If your in the car with a friend and he crashes you can sue his insurance company for compensation. I was asked why i didn't join the union at work. Because I don't see any point I said. But they will represent you should you wish to take the company to court. imagine it's icey and you slip on the ground next to the cooling tower, the union will cover the cost of sueing the company. But if I slip up outside when it's icey it just one of those things, it's life, accidents happen!! It's insane, a aspect to modern life that I really don't like and this change to the road safety bill is just another example of the same thing.



Edited by Peter Fenwick
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-January-2006 at 16:16
Originally posted by livvy livvy wrote:

The very near future with the Road safety Bill means changes including:-
* doubling of the maximum fine for without due care.
* making driving without proper control & handheld mobile use endorseable offences.
* mandatory disqualification of 6 months for a 2nd offence of dangerous condition within 3 years.
* a new offence of bad driving where death results. (to address people's concerns of where drivers just making a "mistake" kill others & say but I didn't mean it.)



Meanwhile, between 20 and 100 times more people die needlessly in the care of the government without them doing a thing about it.

Those insufferable drivers, eh?
Ciao,
Spokey

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