E36 M3 officially not really an M-car |
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bhp555
Senior Member II Joined: 16-February-2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 176 |
Posted: 12-January-2006 at 16:23 |
In the words of BMW Motorsport driver and 1993 BTCC champion Joachim Winkelhock: Quote: "The M3 coupe and M5 are not only two of the most thrilling cars in the world, but also provide you with a feeling of absolute safety through their perfect handling"....... |
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Eamo
Moderator Group Joined: 13-May-2003 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 3450 |
Posted: 12-January-2006 at 16:52 |
best car ever made!! |
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Eamo
Moderator Group Joined: 13-May-2003 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 3450 |
Posted: 12-January-2006 at 16:53 |
and before anyone gets their knickers in a twist Im only stirring it!
Edited by Eamo |
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BMG M3
Really Senior Member II Joined: 26-April-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1594 |
Posted: 12-January-2006 at 17:07 |
Did he say that when BMW were paying him to drive their cars ? Sounds very PR speak to me. |
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bhp555
Senior Member II Joined: 16-February-2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 176 |
Posted: 12-January-2006 at 17:22 |
Did he say that when BMW were paying him to drive their cars ? Sounds very PR speak to me. ...it's a fair cop..... |
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darren s
Groupie Joined: 04-December-2004 Location: york/lilla edet sweden Status: Offline Points: 81 |
Posted: 13-January-2006 at 05:35 |
I agree the e30 m3 is a great car,and its all down to personal choice,my 96 evo is the first bmw i have owned,and it is the best car i have ever had,so i am going to be biased on this subject.In a few years when the prices have dropped a bit,i hope to get an m3csl which for me, is the best m3 to date.
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m3 evo
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M3PSM
Really Senior Member I Joined: 27-May-2003 Location: Tropical Essex Status: Offline Points: 451 |
Posted: 13-January-2006 at 08:11 |
This is a great topic that was bound to provoke a lot of response :)
On the original topic, there was a shift in what an "M" car was from the E30 to the E36. But, the E36, E46 and probably the E90 when it's released. The new "M" cars are more "fast-road" than The more "track" focussed E30. You could even argue that the early E30's are more focussed than the later ones in an aim to get more sales. Therefore the softer "M" has been in production for longer and in much higher quantities than the original concept. Should we therefore not re-badge all early "track-focussed" E30 M3's as M3 GTR's or CSL's and leave the rest of the M's with their correct logo? Just a thought. Or only give the M badge to cars without electric windows, mirrors etc, air-con, leather, stereos and all the other luxury car niceties? Call the rest GT's, be they E30's, E36's or whatever? Just a thought :) Paul |
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Drive it like you stole it!
___________________________ 1995 3.0 E36 Coupe 1989 E30 325 Touring 1992 Yamaha TDM 850 www.myallracing.co.uk |
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BM Fan
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 19-January-2004 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 1054 |
Posted: 13-January-2006 at 09:48 |
Well thought out - exactly when does an M car cease to be an M car??????? |
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Martin
In BMW exile at the moment (Shame on me for lurking!!!) Previous Models 2001 E39 520i Auto 1996 E36 M3 Evo Individual 1996 E36 328i Coupe 1997 E36 318i Conv 1992 E36 316i Sln |
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Drew540i
Really Senior Member II Available from all good newsagents! Joined: 15-August-2005 Location: The Mansfield Massive Status: Offline Points: 632 |
Posted: 13-January-2006 at 16:26 |
Don't be so bloody daft. That's like saying an E30 M3 engine is just a souped up M10 (hang on........) Actually, the CSL racing engine was the M49 which is very different to the later M1 unit, different head and chamber/piston design so not comparable at all. The S14 motor is based on a slightly modified M10 block to the extent where a 2 litre 2002 block can be fitted with an S14 head (shortened verion of the M5/M6) provided you sort out an external oil drain. An M10 head bolts straight to an M3 block. To call it a modified 16v version of the M10 518 engine is not far from the truth. And if truth be known, the S14 engine was a boat anchor by 1992 and outclassed - that's why BMW started afresh with the M42 (318iS) engine for 1993. The M3 E36 engine is just as special and has nothing apart from bore spacing in common with an M50 or M52 engine. The head is a completely different design with regard to porting, valve angles etc. Also the M52 uses two seperate cam carriers that fit into the head. The M3 timing chain is the same as the E30 with the chain driving both cams. On an M50 it drives the inlet cam which then drives the exhaust cam via a small link chain. M50 series cranks were all spheriodal grey cast iron with powdered steel rods, the M3 3.0 and 3.2 all had forged steel cranks and rods. E30 M3 owners tend to be a snobby elitist bunch - but when I had my Sport Evo I always gave the E36 boys a nod - as well as owners of the 3 door Sierra Cosworth and Mercedes 190 2.3/2.5 16v - the Evolution version of which absolutely murdered the M3 in the early nineties on the track (just like the Sierra did in the eighties!) As for 'competition pedigree', well that's nonsense. I don't recall the M5 in any shape or form being raced, or the M635CSi. And so it is with the E36 which like these cars is a fast and accomplished road car, nothing more. |
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Drew540i
Really Senior Member II Available from all good newsagents! Joined: 15-August-2005 Location: The Mansfield Massive Status: Offline Points: 632 |
Posted: 13-January-2006 at 18:26 |
Also wrong. Just like the E30, the E36 M3 was designed to be both a racer as well as a commercial prospect. This is why the M3 E36 3 litre was raced by Jonny Cecotto in the ADAC German GT championship which he won in 1993 - the year the M3 came out. The E36 also did very well in the American IMSA Series, winning at least one GTS2 class as well as several 24 hours races at the Ring. The E30 M3 was replaced in Touring cars by the S42 engined (Motorsport developed M42) E36 and the M3 E36 was designed to race in GT championships - hence the homologation special M3 GT and GTR. So to say the E36 was not a race car is absolute rubbish! |
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darren s
Groupie Joined: 04-December-2004 Location: york/lilla edet sweden Status: Offline Points: 81 |
Posted: 13-January-2006 at 19:43 |
what can i say drew you know your stuff
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m3 evo
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M3PSM
Really Senior Member I Joined: 27-May-2003 Location: Tropical Essex Status: Offline Points: 451 |
Posted: 14-January-2006 at 05:58 |
Where any of the M's raced in car showroom trim?
Or, like the current touring cars and rally cars etc, were they stripped down and kitted out with new brakes, suspension, interior, tuned engine, stiffened chassis, re-maped ecu, lighter panels etc etc? This being the case, surely none of them are the race proven thoroughbreds, just tamed down sales tools for the general public. |
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Drive it like you stole it!
___________________________ 1995 3.0 E36 Coupe 1989 E30 325 Touring 1992 Yamaha TDM 850 www.myallracing.co.uk |
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Drew540i
Really Senior Member II Available from all good newsagents! Joined: 15-August-2005 Location: The Mansfield Massive Status: Offline Points: 632 |
Posted: 16-January-2006 at 05:23 |
Exactly. It makes me laugh when E30 M3 owners say that their cars are really racers with tax discs - they are not. A proper M3 race car would have had a seam welded shell for a start as well as a proper cage to absorb all the stresses - that's why old road going M3's that have a seen a few track days are all buckled and cracked around the front strut tops. The E30 M3 was just as much a commercial proposition as anything else - BMW built and sold 17'000 as a way of reflecting some glory on the E30 and BMW as a whole. As for the M3 versus 325i debate - well, MOTOR magazine compared the two and found that the 2.3 litre M3 was indeed faster around MIRA than the 325i Sport - by a whopping .44 of a second (40.64 seconds versus 40.20). On the slalom handling course they recorded exactly the same time. So, faster than a 325i Sport? Think again! |
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Jonners
Really Senior Member II Joined: 23-September-2003 Status: Offline Points: 601 |
Posted: 16-January-2006 at 05:28 |
very learned, detailed and thorough
but a bit off the point... |
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Robstar
Newbie Joined: 17-June-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Posted: 16-January-2006 at 06:18 |
The M635CSi was raced in the '80s up against TWR Jag XJSs and the like in the ETCC and some trips over to Bathurst. Here's a photo. I vaguely remember seeing an E34 M5 raced by someone, but it wasn't a factory BMW entry. Edited by Robstar |
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 27-August-2003 Location: Lost somewhere in time... Status: Offline Points: 6484 |
Posted: 16-January-2006 at 06:25 |
The most interesting post so far was TJ's. The fact that a Supra TT 4 speed auto was faster round the track than an E36 M3. Anyone want to make a comment about rice burners.....
Edited by Peter Fenwick |
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 27-August-2003 Location: Lost somewhere in time... Status: Offline Points: 6484 |
Posted: 16-January-2006 at 06:31 |
On the contrary, I thinks it's right on the mark. It appears to me, as an outsider (never owned an M car), that a lot of the E30 M3 owners are very full of the 'my cars better than yours, my cars more worthy of it's badge, my cars got a proper motorsport pedigree' mentality and what Drew is saying is that basically it a lot of tosh. Well said Drew540 |
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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///Mister_G
Really Senior Member I Joined: 01-August-2005 Location: Coventry, UK Status: Offline Points: 343 |
Posted: 16-January-2006 at 06:34 |
SupraTT has nearly 100lb/ft of torque over the M3 with sequential turbos. (At around the same weight) I was drooling over one last night |
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Avus E36 M3.0
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Jonners
Really Senior Member II Joined: 23-September-2003 Status: Offline Points: 601 |
Posted: 16-January-2006 at 07:21 |
guys...
this is straightforward the point is simply whether the e36 m3 marked a change in direction in the use of the m badge no amount of comparisons with other cars will change history the fact that the e36 m3 is undoubtedly a good car doesn't change history just because some e30 m3 owners are elitist doesn't change history the fact that a e30 325i is nearly as good doesn't change history you guys are just soo typical of Blair's Britain - let's just all concentrate on what's emotionally appealing and forget about the truth... nobody said the e36 is no good - or if they did it was a joke - similarly comments about the e30 m3 being better should be taken with a pinch of salt... there's always a temptation to be the great myth debunker on these type of topics but 'pedigree' is the right word here - talk about cylinder blocks on this issue is misleading - we all know the heads are the important bit and there is a bloodline between the twin cam batmobiles and the early m5/m6/s14... that particular bloodline stopped with the e36 - for one reason and another - not saying that's bad or good but it did change that's the point here - not whether this or that is better or worse one last thing - i use the word 'history' with a slight tongue in cheek - wouldn't want anyone thinking I'm taking this as seriously as famine in Africa and so forth.... |
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Phil-C
Really Senior Member II Ex E30 M3 owner... Joined: 06-May-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 707 |
Posted: 16-January-2006 at 07:26 |
Maybe 'M' cars are just the pinnacle of the BMW ranges performance envelope. Some of which have a racing bloodline some of which don't. Wasn't the M1 a road car first? The E30 was a homologation special of a road car to go racing in a saloon car series, whereas as mentioned M635csi's were campained against Jag's etc but they were again road cars first. E28 M5, road car - at the time the best 4 door supercar, a trend which argualbly continues. E36? a fast road car formost that was then raced, did the GT & GTR versions precede the original 3.0?
It's only the E30 which was a specifically and extensively 'customised' existing car by the motorsport divison to compete and then subsequently sold as an 'M' car. What's wrong with an 'M' car 'just' being the best driving version of the current model lineup that BMW offer? I stand to be shot down |
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