BIG Brother Has arrived--NOW

livvy wrote: Lets not forget that it's not all about terrorism, their main benefit will be in helping the Police catch criminals, as I've already said the average arrest rate of ANPR officers is ten times that of other officers. Most things it will highlight is to help in catching people in stolen cars, who had jumped bail etc etc.

Yeah, sure. Cameras did a bang up job proving what happened with Jean de Menezes, didn't they?

I'm dubious about these cameras Livvy, if everything is so good and above board, why, with all this technology, are they still sending out incorrect nips ?

spokey wrote: spokey wrote: What do you think they are going to do with the information that I went to the supermarket at 3pm yesterday ? What are they going to do with the information that you went to the supermarket at the same time as a known Al-Qaeda operative? That you were both in the soap aisle at the same time? That you were just one queue away from him at checkout?

Why do you assume that the innocent are going to be targeted & not criminals ?
What purpose does that serve ?
Don't say look at speed cameras, because they don't target the innocent, they target those who are committing offences.

If they want to spy on you (as you call it) they can already within the law, so cameras don't change that. Why don't they spy on you in particular now ?
Because they aren't interested in you that's why.
Why do you think that with a limited amount of time & resources you are going to become a more interesting target because of cameras ?

For one , I don't have a loyalty card for Tesco's so that's put the brakes on that & if I did it would only show that I don't purchase the constituants or bomb making materials in the massive quantities that they do. Also I am rather reassured that they know where the terrorists are & the fact that I (along with many many other people) am in an aisle next to them means exactly what ?
What are they going to be able to deduce from the fact I was in an aisle next to a terrorist on one day, what evidence is that going to give them ?
There were people on the tube next to terrorists & on the bus next to terrorists in July & those people were victims. That's what I'd rather not be thanks & if cameras help in preventing that then good.

Lets not forget that it's not all about terrorism, their main benefit will be in helping the Police catch criminals, as I've already said the average arrest rate of ANPR officers is ten times that of other officers. Most things it will highlight is to help in catching people in stolen cars, who had jumped bail etc etc.


Edited by livvy

livvy wrote: And why would the Police want to spy on lawful motorists ? What will they gain from spying on lawful motorists ? What do you think they are going to do with the information that I went to the supermarket at 3pm yesterday ? Do you really think they are putting up cameras to get that information ?

I don't know why they are putting them up. It's all very conveniently being rushed through without any kind of review or debate. That, in itself, is worrying.

All I know is: as a citizen of the UK, and a taxpayer, I resent people who are supposed to serve me being able to spy on me and making me pay for the privilege. Anything untoward that they do with it is even more of an insult.

They'll be too busy with the people they are really looking for to worry about my shopping habits.

It's not your shopping habits that they will be worried about. By then, Tesco will be 80% of the market, and they'll just nationalise it. Your entire loyalty card history will tell them exactly what they want to know. If Tesco doesn't share that with them already, in the name of national security.

It's going to be used to check on your associations, where you travel, do you stray over the speed limit, do you stay within the lines, do you overtake? Are you a risk taker? Perhaps you need to be watched!

(And if you think I'm being ridiculous about Tesco sharing your loyalty card details in the interests of national security, reflect on this: many components of home-made explosive devices are readily available in supermarkets. Just think about the government mining your shopping patterns to see if you [and any of your associates] have bought one or more components of a home-made bomb. Then just wait for the knock on the door. )

livvy wrote: Your right you don't have the option of tearing them down, unless you want a criminal conviction. But of course no government will have them if they think that their proposed introduction would mean them not getting elected.

Therein lies the rub. People are led so gently up the garden path, they don't realise the negative consequences of things until it's too late. It also helps if you have some terrible threat (like, say, a terrorist attack) that you can use to justify it. When the terror is over, no-one will remember to offer those freedoms back to us.

You don't have the police saying things like: "with this technology we can see where every motorist has been, so that we can spy on lawful motorists." You hear them say things like: "we can use this to eliminate criminals from the road" or "we can monitor suspected terrorists much more easily" or even " Well they can stick one up outside my house, I'm all for it. Benefits outweigh any disadvantages in my book & I'll smile as I pass them all."

So that's alright, then.

livvy wrote: Well they can stick one up outside my house, I'm all for it. Benefits outweigh any disadvantages in my book & I'll smile as I pass them all.

The benefits IN YOUR OPINION outweigh the disadvantages. In MY opinion they do not, yet I do not have the opportunity of going around and tearing them down.

Make no mistake, livvy, in 20 years, this country will be even worse than Soviet Russia was and it will all be because the benefits outweighed the disadvantages.

Do remember to smile when it's happened.


Edited by spokey

livvy wrote: spokey wrote: Yes, what does it matter if they watch you while you're doing nothing wrong? You mean like they can now without cameras ?

They can, but because it's a lot of work, they don't. I work with really big databases for a living, trust me when I say that I'm scared of this for a very good reason.

There is a big difference between police driving around at random and some spotty oik sitting behind a computer terminal trying to suss out where his girlfriend has been over the last few days. Or some copper with a grudge being able to see your every move. Or a psychopathic copper being able to monitor your every move. Or a dystopian government being able to monitor your every move.

livvy wrote: What as I say, I don't see it doing, is adversely affecting the law abiding public.

Yes, what does it matter if they watch you while you're doing nothing wrong?

livvy wrote: Look at the flipside as well, there may be times that the cameras could help you prove that you were nowhere near a stated location where false allegations are made against you.

Really? Well, I'm sure that the police already do every possible check before they randomly accuse someone, so that doesn't really do anything for me.

Fact of the matter is: the ANPR blanket coverage will make lazy policing even easier. Just like scameras do.

livvy wrote: But in relation to your comment, just because your registration is logged passing an ANPR camera it doesn't necessarily mean you have "come to the attention of Police." The ANPR will highlight the registrations of cars that are already of interest to Police. The system won't highlight your registration unless the Police already have interest in it.

The term "associated vehicles" means analysing convoys of cars, vans or trucks to see who is driving alongside a vehicle that is already known to be of interest to the police. Criminals, for instance, will drive somewhere in a lawful vehicle, steal a car and then drive back in convoy to commit further crimes "You're not necessarily interested in the stolen vehicle. You're interested in what's moving with the stolen vehicle," Mr Whiteley explained.

As far as I can tell, what they are saying is that if you travel a certain distance in convoy with a known criminal, you will come to the attention of the police.

Now, I don't know about you, but I'm not going to stop and ask every motorist I travel alongside whether or not he or she is a criminal in the process of committing a crime, so that I can ascertain whether or not it is safe for me to drive alongside them.