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Fushion Julz
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 27-May-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 400
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Topic: What type of Police service???? Posted: 22-November-2005 at 19:08 |
livvy wrote:
4. Their job is to investigate & if sufficient evidence to prefer a
charge to do just that. The courts job is to decide if there is
sufficient evidence to convict. Our system isn't actually about
determining innocence or guilt, it's about can the state prove beyond
all reasonable doubt that you committed the offence, which isn't
actually the same thing. Innocence is never on trial. |
I was referring to the manner in which the police deal with people in
everyday life and situations. IME, police generally choose to take the
"you're guilty, therefore you forfeit all your rights" rather than the
"you might be innocent and have a valid point" line
The legal system is, generally, the failsafe that ensures the police
can't just lock you up and throw away the key...Although, given the
Mets' preference for 90day detention, that is still up for change!
5. Most burglaries happen during the daytime, not Friday nights.
The highest numbers of Police on duty will also be during the day.
The sort of Policing you are talking about sounds like Public order,
not issuing punitive fines but preventing & detecting violence
(assaults) & vandalism (susch as damage to vehicles). Infact the
sort of things you said the Police should be doing & which you were
yourself a victim of.
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well I was referring, in this case, to not just me, but a spate of
burglaries a while back in the area I live in. Yes, I was burgled...as
was a friend of mine (on the same night) and several neighbours on
successive nights (all in two streets)...The local area officer (a young, seemingly
overworked and sole policeman) explained that, although he know beyond
doubt who the protagonists were, the resources were not available to
either catch them, deter them or to recover the goods..despite knowing
the empty house they were using as a staging post.
The reason he gave (and the "scenes of crimes" officer confirmed) was
that the town centre policing...all those big corporate companies
needing their windows protecting...took precedence over the
house-thieves...
Of course there is no "agenda" (right)..only I believe that the boss of a large
computer company has a bit more "clout" with the chief inspector than I
or my friend has....
Nowadays, though, I'm sure the police hardly need "prompting" to attend
a pub where the drunks on the pavement can be "fined" (taxed) a nifty
£80 on the spot!
6. I believe that there is probably less corruption & greater transparency now than at any other time.
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On which planet?
Edited by Fushion Julz
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1987 E30 M3
1996 E36 328i SE 4dr (Manual)
1992 E34 525iX Touring...SOLD
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Fushion Julz
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 27-May-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 400
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Posted: 22-November-2005 at 18:55 |
livvy wrote:
1. The Police only have power to seize under our countries laws (none
made up by the Police, but by governemnt or common law). If they have
acted outside this then you have recourse through the courts yourself. |
well they did...and still have about £5K worth of my kit...the charges
(such as they were), against 3rd parties, have been thrown out by the
magistrates and the police still won't return the equipment! Courts are
all well and good IF you have the available cash to pay for the
solicitors AND you think it is OK for the police to waste public funds
in this manner, too.
2. It's not OK for someone to damage your van.
Unfortunately a hunch is not great evidence against someone.
Without a suspect being present at the time of your call for criminal
damage to a motorvehicle, I can't see a unit being immeadiately deployed
under the 999 system. In such circumstances it may actually get seen
sooner going to the Police station rather than waiting for them to
attend. If you do park illegally blocking access immeadiately outside a
Police station that is a good way of getting Police attention I'd
imagine, but perhaps not the type you want. |
didn't call 999, but the local number (actually a call centre, ffs)...I
blocked a residential one-way road, outside my house in the middle of
the night 2 miles from the nearest police station
3. They do, as of course there are discipline regulations to deal with such things.
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great...now how do we actually get the police, the ipcc and the govt to actually instigate the procedure and regulations?
Ahh...court, of course...those $$$$s again....
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1987 E30 M3
1996 E36 328i SE 4dr (Manual)
1992 E34 525iX Touring...SOLD
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thepits
Moderator Group
Joined: 09-July-2003
Location: far far away
Status: Offline
Points: 10000473
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Posted: 22-November-2005 at 17:33 |
spokey wrote:
livvy wrote:
6. I believe that there is probably less corruption & greater transparency now than at any other time.
| It's amazing.
If it wasn't such a clear night with a full moon, I'd never have seen that pig flying by my window in the dark.
|
oh look there's a huge flock of them ........
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Cats know your every thought.
But don't care.
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Nigel
Moderator Group
Joined: 09-November-2002
Status: Offline
Points: 6941
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Posted: 22-November-2005 at 16:53 |
spokey wrote:
livvy wrote:
6. I believe that there is probably less corruption & greater transparency now than at any other time.
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It's amazing.
If it wasn't such a clear night with a full moon, I'd never have seen that pig flying by my window in the dark.
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Spokey I really have to back Livvy up on this one, I wouldn't want to serve now.
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Best Wishes
Nigel
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spokey
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Offensive and obnoxious tub of lard
Joined: 02-March-2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1948
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Posted: 22-November-2005 at 16:50 |
livvy wrote:
6. I believe that there is probably less corruption & greater transparency now than at any other time.
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It's amazing.
If it wasn't such a clear night with a full moon, I'd never have seen that pig flying by my window in the dark.
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Ciao,
Spokey
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livvy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 12-November-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 745
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Posted: 22-November-2005 at 15:46 |
4. Their job is to investigate & if sufficient evidence to prefer a
charge to do just that. The courts job is to decide if there is
sufficient evidence to convict. Our system isn't actually about
determining innocence or guilt, it's about can the state prove beyond
all reasonable doubt that you committed the offence, which isn't
actually the same thing. Innocence is never on trial.
5. Most burglaries happen during the daytime, not Friday nights.
The highest numbers of Police on duty will also be during the day.
The sort of Policing you are talking about sounds like Public order,
not issuing punitive fines but preventing & detecting violence
(assaults) & vandalism (susch as damage to vehicles). Infact the
sort of things you said the Police should be doing & which you were
yourself a victim of.
6. I believe that there is probably less corruption & greater transparency now than at any other time.
|
My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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livvy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 12-November-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 745
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Posted: 22-November-2005 at 15:41 |
1. The Police only have power to seize under our countries laws (none
made up by the Police, but by governemnt or common law). If they have
acted outside this then you have recourse through the courts yourself.
2. It's not OK for someone to damage your van.
Unfortunately a hunch is not great evidence against someone.
Without a suspect being present at the time of your call for criminal
damage to a motorvehicle, I can't see a unit being immeadiately deployed
under the 999 system. In such circumstances it may actually get seen
sooner going to the Police station rather than waiting for them to
attend. If you do park illegally blocking access immeadiately outside a
Police station that is a good way of getting Police attention I'd
imagine, but perhaps not the type you want.
3. They do, as of course there are discipline regulations to deal with such things.
Edited by livvy
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My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Fushion Julz
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 27-May-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 400
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Posted: 22-November-2005 at 12:01 |
1. The one that says "we can seize your property, without valid reason,
refuse to tell you why it is being held, when or if you will get it
back and if you want to complain...tough!
2. So it is OK for someone to vandalise my van...I ring up and report
it, even saying the paint is wet and I can be reasonably sure who
commited the crime...they say they are too busy to attend and I have to
go to the station to report it and receive a reference number....So I
park my van in the road, blocking it to all traffic (at 2.30am) and
within 10mins a patrol car with 2 officers are round threatening to
arrest me unless it is moved (and I was tempted to take them up on
their offer).
3. good...now we have to get the police to understand that
4.Then why do they automatically assume that you (or me) are guilty
FIRST even in the face of all evidence and then, when it is proved
beyond ALL doubt they were wrong, they refuse to even apologise for
massive inconvenience and costs?
5. <Cough> Hmmm...not sure I agree....There seems to be no end of
police available to ensure a few drunks don't fall over and hurt
themselves on Friday nights, but never enough police to prevent, or
even catch, the burglars around at the same time of night.
6. Good...shame they don't though
PS: I have (personal) examples of all of these...and I'm a pretty law-abiding person on the whole!
Edited by Fushion Julz
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1987 E30 M3
1996 E36 328i SE 4dr (Manual)
1992 E34 525iX Touring...SOLD
|
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livvy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 12-November-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 745
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Posted: 22-November-2005 at 11:47 |
1. What laws have the Police created ?
2. I agree, but a degree of realism is required here given the limited
number of resources & the number of calls Police receive. They will
have to be prioritised.
3. I agree, both victims & alleged offenders deserve to be treated with respect & dignity.
4. Police don't decide innocence or guilt though so they can't do that anyway. Courts decide it.
5. The vast majority of Police resources are of course targeted towards
that. Very few are used for punative fines issue (as you put it)
& of course Police get no money from the issue of them anyway.
6. I agree.
Edited by livvy
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My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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Fushion Julz
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 27-May-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 400
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Posted: 22-November-2005 at 09:48 |
Nigel wrote:
HIs visa to stay in this country had expired, so he is an illegal immigrant !
If he doesn't understand the words " armed police stop", then tough , harsh but true. |
So that's fine then?
I hope you remember when you go to (say) Czech Republic that when a
person in plain clothes charges after you yelling in Czech and
brandishing a gun, you stand still and wait for him to get to you!
Seems that the fact he was innocent AND was shot, nonetheless, is the best reason ever NOT to arm all police in the UK
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1987 E30 M3
1996 E36 328i SE 4dr (Manual)
1992 E34 525iX Touring...SOLD
|
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Fushion Julz
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 27-May-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 400
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Posted: 22-November-2005 at 09:23 |
In response to Livvy's "what do the public want" question:
Well, what I want (as a member of the public) is:
1. The police to enforce the law, not create the law
2. The police to respond to a report of a crime within a reasonable length of time
3. The police to treat suspects with respect..especially of their human rights..and courtesy
4. For The police to understand that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, not vice versa.
5. The police to actually offer a service that entails catching
criminals (real criminals..people who steal, injure or kill others, not
those who provide a source of cheap income through punative fines).
6. The police to behave above board, transparently and honestly
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1987 E30 M3
1996 E36 328i SE 4dr (Manual)
1992 E34 525iX Touring...SOLD
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 27-August-2003
Location: Lost somewhere in time...
Status: Offline
Points: 6484
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Posted: 22-November-2005 at 06:52 |
spokey wrote:
livvy wrote:
spokey wrote:
livvy wrote:
Average number of homicides per 100,000 population 2000-2002
England & Wales 1.76
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Does that include irresponsible speeding drivers?
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Only where it falls within the definition of homicide I'd imagine.
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Really? I thought all people who exceeded the speed limit were homicidal maniacs.
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You know that isn't true Spokey. Stop being silly.
While I disagree pathalogically with the current stance on speeding
It has nothing whatsoever to do with murder
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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Peter Fenwick
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 27-August-2003
Location: Lost somewhere in time...
Status: Offline
Points: 6484
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Posted: 22-November-2005 at 06:46 |
Robmw wrote:
personnally I feel this country is becoming lawless and soon protection will come from vigilantism |
There is a perception that this country is becomming more lawless. This is caused by the far reach of the media, One perosn is shot and you here about it so much you believe it is common place, and the fact that people want you to believe that with law and order labout have failed, i.e political agenda. The Daily mail is famous for this kind of political Bulls**t.
I'm not saying that some areas such as youth culture and binge drinking don't need more attention, but the notion that this country has a worse crime problem than the likes of the US and Brazil is to be quite honest bloody stupid.
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Entering an age of Austerity and now driving a Focus Diesel.
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thepits
Moderator Group
Joined: 09-July-2003
Location: far far away
Status: Offline
Points: 10000473
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Posted: 21-November-2005 at 16:12 |
Spokey!
Shall I get you a new
yours must be quite worn out by now!
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Cats know your every thought.
But don't care.
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livvy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 12-November-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 745
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Posted: 21-November-2005 at 15:57 |
Nah
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My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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spokey
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Offensive and obnoxious tub of lard
Joined: 02-March-2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1948
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Posted: 21-November-2005 at 15:56 |
All the advertising I see on TV. Richard Brunstrom. Discussions on forums with police officers.
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Ciao,
Spokey
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livvy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 12-November-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 745
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Posted: 21-November-2005 at 15:55 |
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My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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spokey
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Offensive and obnoxious tub of lard
Joined: 02-March-2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1948
|
Posted: 21-November-2005 at 15:54 |
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Ciao,
Spokey
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thepits
Moderator Group
Joined: 09-July-2003
Location: far far away
Status: Offline
Points: 10000473
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Posted: 21-November-2005 at 15:50 |
spokey wrote:
livvy wrote:
Average number of homicides per 100,000 population 2000-2002 England & Wales 1.76
| Does that include irresponsible speeding drivers?
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Oho spokey, you're going to stir up
here mate!
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Cats know your every thought.
But don't care.
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livvy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 12-November-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 745
|
Posted: 21-November-2005 at 15:48 |
spokey wrote:
livvy wrote:
Average number of homicides per 100,000 population 2000-2002
England & Wales 1.76
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Does that include irresponsible speeding drivers?
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Only where it falls within the definition of homicide I'd imagine.
Edited by livvy
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My views expressed are just that.
Mine & mine alone.
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