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M3PSM
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 27-May-2003
Location: Tropical Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 451
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Topic: E36 poor steering feedback Posted: 01-November-2005 at 08:33 |
It's been suggested (probably on here) that I should fit an M3 EVO or Z3 steering rack with new complete tie rods.
Will this cure the poor feedback I currently get?
I pressume the lack of feedback is because of the power assistance & a change of rack won't improve this as it'll still be assisted.
I made a big difference by fitting a smaller diameter & thinner Momo wheel, but it still isn't great.
Catching oversteer is more guesswork at the moment & it's very easy to over correct compared to my 944 or my old Manta which are both much more precise.
Does anyone have any suggestions?
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Drive it like you stole it!
___________________________
1995 3.0 E36 Coupe
1989 E30 325 Touring
1992 Yamaha TDM 850
www.myallracing.co.uk
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Pooky
Senior Member II
Joined: 23-May-2005
Location: Coventry
Status: Offline
Points: 205
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Posted: 01-November-2005 at 08:58 |
The Evo or Z3 steering rack will help but it probably needs a lot more than that. The steering feel comes from everywhere, bushes, tyres, springs/dampers. Couldn't say if you need all or only some of the above but with everything it's definitely loads better than standard.
How are your Pagids getting on?
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M3PSM
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 27-May-2003
Location: Tropical Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 451
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Posted: 01-November-2005 at 09:09 |
Cheers again Pooky.
Hopefully by the time I've done all of the above, which is already on my list, it should improve.
Do track cars still have the power steering or is the whole system replaced?
Still waiting for the hoses, discs & fluid which should arrive today so will fit it all at the weekend & let you know how they go.
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Drive it like you stole it!
___________________________
1995 3.0 E36 Coupe
1989 E30 325 Touring
1992 Yamaha TDM 850
www.myallracing.co.uk
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Pooky
Senior Member II
Joined: 23-May-2005
Location: Coventry
Status: Offline
Points: 205
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Posted: 02-November-2005 at 15:04 |
Finally gave the Pagids a go at Oulton Park today, basically on the same set-up as you will have (Evo discs, braided hoses). They were brilliant did a 30 miunte stint and they stopped the same every time, every lap, no fade, good stopping power. I had to stop as I was far more knackered than the car.
Only thing is the neighbours can here my squealing brakes coming from two streets away...
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Eamo
Moderator Group
Joined: 13-May-2003
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 3450
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Posted: 02-November-2005 at 15:51 |
AFAIK the 3.0 rack is a quick rack where the 3.2 evo is a standard e36 rack.
your current rack may be knackered which may be causing the poor feedback
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Pooky
Senior Member II
Joined: 23-May-2005
Location: Coventry
Status: Offline
Points: 205
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Posted: 02-November-2005 at 15:59 |
Eamo wrote:
AFAIK the 3.0 rack is a quick rack where the 3.2 evo is a standard e36 rack.
your current rack may be knackered which may be causing the poor feedback |
Actually the 3.0 rack is slower than the standard E36 rack, it just has a variable ratio so has less turns lock to lock but the ratio for the first 180 deg or so is slower.
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Eamo
Moderator Group
Joined: 13-May-2003
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 3450
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Posted: 02-November-2005 at 17:15 |
ah!!
thanks for the correction
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Ian Godney
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 01-September-2004
Status: Offline
Points: 257
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Posted: 03-November-2005 at 03:31 |
I have the same info as Eamo , the E36 M3 3:0lt rack is the quickest one available , I fitted a RHD one into my E30 rally car I'm building , its about 2:5 turns lock to lock , If you go on Gustave's site it give you quite a bit of info on them. I've not heard ot the rack being variable , mine isn't ?? if its on a rack and pinion I cant see how it can be , to be variable the cogs would have to get further apart for it to work , I cant see how it can be done
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www.godspeedbrakes.co.uk
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M3PSM
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 27-May-2003
Location: Tropical Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 451
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Posted: 03-November-2005 at 03:45 |
So do track M3's retain the power steering or is there a replacement system they use?
It's not the rack gearing that bothers me so much as the over assistance from the power steering that dulls the feedback.
After driving it for about 3 years now & getting used to it, it's not a huge issue that warrants a bag of cash of throwing at it. It's just one of those niggly things that annoys me because it was better on other cars I've had.
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Drive it like you stole it!
___________________________
1995 3.0 E36 Coupe
1989 E30 325 Touring
1992 Yamaha TDM 850
www.myallracing.co.uk
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Pooky
Senior Member II
Joined: 23-May-2005
Location: Coventry
Status: Offline
Points: 205
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Posted: 03-November-2005 at 05:17 |
Ian Godney wrote:
I have the same info as Eamo , the E36 M3 3:0lt rack is the quickest one available , I fitted a RHD one into my E30 rally car I'm building , its about 2:5 turns lock to lock , If you go on Gustave's site it give you quite a bit of info on them. I've not heard ot the rack being variable , mine isn't ?? if its on a rack and pinion I cant see how it can be , to be variable the cogs would have to get further apart for it to work , I cant see how it can be done |
Variable ratios have been around for quite a while. They were first designed in the sixties but most modern systems run the type pioneered by Bishop, an Australian company.
Basically a variable ratio does what it says, the amount the rack moves relative to the amount the pinion turns changes with increasing lock. The idea behind it is to slow the centre ratio down for stability but maintain lock to lock turns for low speed manouverability. It is done by changing the angle of the teeth on the rack bar so the pinion effectively acts on a different bit as you increase lock. If you remove the gaiter on the end of the rack nearest the valve you will see the teeth on the rack bar and the change in angle between them. I could take a photo of the one I have at home.
That's why a 3.0 rack has the smallest amount of turns lock to lock so people assume its the fastest rack, but as it has a variable ratio, the ratio across centre is actually slower. You would be better off with a standard E36 rack.
The lock to lock turns test is also meaningless for a second reason, that being that it depends on how much the rack bar moves. For example if you have a slow ratio with restricted lock then you will have a small lock to lock turn but also a slow ratio.
Variable ratios are now used by a lot of car companies, all Jags, the new Porsche 997, some Audis, all Mercedes new 5-series - non AFS.
I have measured the ratio from my 3.0 and could take a photo of the rack bar teeth and post them later if you like?
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Pooky
Senior Member II
Joined: 23-May-2005
Location: Coventry
Status: Offline
Points: 205
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Posted: 03-November-2005 at 12:10 |
Did the photos, rack on full lock. You can see the slow centre ratio part nearest the rack where the angle between the teeth is small and then the angle increase as you go towards full lock.
This is a standard E36 M3 3.0 rack I removed from my car.
As for race racks I'm afraid I don't know. There is a manual race rack on Ebay at the moment but I know Dom is selling it because it is too heavy. So if it's too heavy for racing then it must be ridiculous for road use?
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Ian Godney
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 01-September-2004
Status: Offline
Points: 257
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Posted: 03-November-2005 at 13:23 |
the racing ones I've seen are not powered , the works cars didnt have power racks , I'm fitting an electric power steering pump to mine , if its too light I can slow the pump down to tighten it up
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www.godspeedbrakes.co.uk
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M3PSM
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 27-May-2003
Location: Tropical Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 451
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Posted: 03-November-2005 at 15:58 |
Let us know how it feels when you've fitted it.
I'll see what I can dig up on the works cars steering.
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Drive it like you stole it!
___________________________
1995 3.0 E36 Coupe
1989 E30 325 Touring
1992 Yamaha TDM 850
www.myallracing.co.uk
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Jonners
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 23-September-2003
Status: Offline
Points: 601
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Posted: 04-November-2005 at 06:24 |
this is an interesting thread as the e36 rack also has relevance to the e30 m3 - following ian's example
just wanted to bump it up again to see if there's any more news
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M3PSM
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 27-May-2003
Location: Tropical Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 451
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Posted: 04-November-2005 at 07:21 |
Not sure if I'm imagining it, but feedback seems better after simply fitting a strut brace last night.
Hopefully bushes & suspension should improve this further, then I'll look at rack options.
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Drive it like you stole it!
___________________________
1995 3.0 E36 Coupe
1989 E30 325 Touring
1992 Yamaha TDM 850
www.myallracing.co.uk
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Jonners
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 23-September-2003
Status: Offline
Points: 601
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Posted: 04-November-2005 at 08:17 |
aren't the e36 m3 gt rack and pinions different in some way - ie better???
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