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phb10186 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2005 at 07:40

I actually have a specialist working on it at the moment, but its hard to find some of the information, as I dont know my way around every resource at the moment, basically because I dont have that much free time...

I am fairly new to this car, but I want to do as much as I can myself, so that when something happens again I can repeat, what I have done in the past.

Specialists are all very well, but I am very keen to learn about things that the rest of you know, and by just taking it to a specialist, I will never learn that.

This non-start business has taken a long time, but I now know where everything I am looking for is.

Your experteise is attributable to your hands on experience, not by you taking your car to a specialist all the time, thats how we learn.

 

Finally; could someone please let me know the pin locations for the Motronic ECU... I.E what every pin does. I have a US definition, but I wanted to make sure of the European ones before I test anything.

According to what I have found... PIN 25 and 26 are the reference point sonsor, and Pin 27 is the speed sensor.


1985 635 CSI with Style 134's
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2005 at 10:13

Originally posted by Drew540i Drew540i wrote:

...Not being personal but
you really don't know what you're doing.

This is Ivan here: Ben may not know what he's doing at the moment, but at least he's taking the trouble to learn. That is far more useful to him than your own arrogance.

I might also add that the reason he came to this Forum was to help him narrow things down - which he has considerably, and is grateful for. At best, he even hoped that one or more of you - with your "years of experience", Andy -  might be able to actually pinpoint the problem. But the fact is that you haven't.

Quote .....I think most of us are past caring now.

I think a good many of us are equally fed up of the exalted position which you tend to take.

We all have to learn. Unlike you, we are not blessed with God-given knowledge. The sooner you can make use of your knowledge in a more ethereal place, perhaps the better it will be.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2005 at 11:49
Originally posted by phb10186 phb10186 wrote:

I think a good many of us
are equally fed up of the exalted position which you
tend to take.


Ahh, diddums. Little soldier's got a temper. Lots of
folk are also fed up with your sniping, caustic
sarcasm and it's been noted that you don't like it in
return. Hard luck Matey. I've tried to help this guy out
with his car and you'll note that I've said 'it's not
personal'. Also stay out of what doesn't concern you,
okay?
Have fun with your non runners - and get a life.


Edited by Drew540i
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2005 at 12:30
Originally posted by phb10186 phb10186 wrote:

PIN 25 and 26 are the
reference point sensor, and Pin 27 is the speed
sensor.



Whatever! But you know that your ECU works so it's
probably a problem of either 12 supply to the ECU or
maybe an earth. You need to test all these terminals
by grounding them (basically a test light on battery
minus and sticking the end of the test light into the
terminals.)

You should have 12 volts at Terminals 18
(sometimes - not all cars have it)) and 35 to power
up the ECU - terminal 35 is powered up from
terminal 87 (red/black wire) on the five pin DME relay
on the inner wing next to the fuel pump relay. This is
important and could be the root of the problem by
whatever means. No power here - run a FUSED wire
from a 12v source. Don't do it without a fuse - any
problem and you might just fry the ECU.

Terminals 14 (cyls 1,2 and 3) and 15 (cyls 4,5,6) are
for the injectors. Make sure you've got voltage here -
you should hear the relevant injectors click when you
ground these terminals (ignition on)

Check the earthing at 5, 10, 16, 17 and 19 for
continuity. You'll need an ohmeter for this.

Engine speed sensor terminals are indeed 27 AND
terminal 8 - you need around 960 ohms of
resistance.

Fuel pump relay control - ground terminal 20 and you
should hear the pump whirring away.

Starter input pulse - you'll need over 8VDC at
terminal 4(ign. ON)

That should keep you busy for a while. My guess is
that you've no power to the ECU - faulty OBC relay,
dodgy alarm wiring, ignition switch.

If you don't have 12v at either ECU terminal 35 or
DME relay terminal 87, you've found the problem.
Report back!

And put Tan's toys back in his pram for Christ's sake.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2005 at 12:40

A free BMW original Oil filter to the person who fathoms out my problem!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a lie.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2005 at 14:27

I thought we were trying to fix the car......

cheers

 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2005 at 15:40

Drew540....

What you have indirectly solved here is that the US cars and the Euro cars have the same ECU pin connections to eachother, as I have a US spec list in front of me, and everything checks out to be identical. Lets see what this uncovers....

To be continued...


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-December-2005 at 17:01
Ahh, well I was reading from an M20 wiring diagram
(that's old E28 525e, chrome bumper 325i etc). But
this old Motronic system was pretty similar and most
of the ECU's can be swapped over anyway as it was
a generic BMW system.

When it's daylight and you have 10 minutes, check
for 12 volts at the DME relay and ECU terminal 35.

If you have no power at the DME relay, check for 12v
at terminal 30 (red wire). This is the terminal that
takes power from the battery. If there's nothing there
either, run a fused wire directly to the battery plus
and she should fire up and run.

Remember to check all this with the ignition on!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-December-2005 at 04:35

The only thing I didn't found.....Do The injectors work?

Francesco from Italy

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-December-2005 at 10:07
Might I suggest disconnecting your new alarm. If there's a problem with this then you'll be looking in the wrong place, ie. don't add new variables to the problem.

While I wouldn't echo Drew540i's comments quite so strongly he does have a point. You do seem to have tried everything possible & I appreciate you want to learn as much as you can. Sometimes though you just have to say "sod it" & take it to someone who really knows these cars - not someone who just knows auto electrics in general.

Have a word with Barney at Munich Legends (01825 740456). Horsetan may not like them but they do know the 6-series very well & may be able to throw some more light on the subject.

As for the Drew540i/Horsetan spat . . .

Originally posted by Drew540i Drew540i wrote:


Lots of folk are also fed up with your sniping, caustic sarcasm and it's been noted that you don't like it in return.


Having been on the end of some of it (more than once) I have to agree.

AndyS
Live each day as if it's your last - one day it will be.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-December-2005 at 16:24
Well, it seems fairly clear to me;

The fuel pump works, but the injectors do not.(no
ECU)

The coil is not being switched on/off. (No ECU)

The ECU is known to work.

Both crank sensors are known to be good.


About the only conclusion here is that the ECU is not
getting 12 volts. As soon as Matey here tests for 12
volts at the ECU 12 connection, he'll know. I'm
almost willing to bet a Mars Bar that it he runs a
fused wire from battery + to the ECU pin 35, this car
will start and run.

Over to you now - but please don't waste everyone's
time and go off on a wild goosechase until you've
established that your working ECU is receiving 12
volts. That is the key to this car running or not!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-December-2005 at 16:56

GENTS,

not sure if this is a help, i used to own an early  325 sport which had the very similar problem(i have not read this thread fully and may have missed something)non starter, voltage to coil etc-one of the sensors on the bell housing reads a pulse from the flywheel, the pulse is generated by a 'tag' which is situated on the flywheel-i think its quite rare but this tag can become detached(it did on mine, just snapped off)therefore sensor does not pick up the pulse, therefore no signal to ecu and no spark.

as i say you may have covered this already, i didnt read the full post.

good luck.

E30 M3 1990.
GSXR 750(K1)TRACK WEAPON.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-December-2005 at 09:11

Originally posted by Drew540i Drew540i wrote:

The coil is not being switched on/off. (No ECU)
The ECU is known to work........

.........
Over to you now - but please don't waste everyone's
time and go off on a wild goosechase until you've
established that your working ECU is receiving 12
volts. That is the key to this car running or not!

first of all....

1 BE sure that relays receive 12V from battery, atfer You turn the key on position2(that position of the key with all those lights on...),as relays have 2 + wires, one from the actuator(in this case , the Motronic relays from OBC /the green wire I told you several posts ago..)and one from 12v(directly from the battery or under the ignition key system...Maybe from the ignition key, when we talk about ECU)...I hope that permanent 12v is not leading electricity at all, is more simple to fix , in my head

2 Then , Be pretty sure that Your fuse box printed circuit has not cuts on circuits and has not melted contacts...

3 Here I need the memory of every 635 driver that read this topic:When my OBC burglar alarm was stuck off, the needle of my economy gauge was not operating as usual..I can't remember if -with the alarm on-the needle stayed on Zero and  moved to max of the scale after I unlocked the alarm...or viceversa. Actually my car has a flat battery, so I'm not able to check what that needle does till tomorrow(when the battery is hopefully charged)...If anyone can go to her/his garage and start his 1982-1988 635...Well, this man can see if the non start saga depends from the OBC or OBC relays.....And also if Motronic relays is fed up with a good dose of 12v tension...

4 I do not know the correct date of Your car production, but some early Motronic cars had a 3rd control relay: open the fuse box , look at those black  rectangular relay (below right,with a lot of pins for windshied washer/wipers...)....Is there a square one near that?(well there are 2 rows of 4 similar relays in the fuse box, I mean the 9th at top right..)...If it is in place , You should have a look at it, if You have not a relay, nor the wires in the connector plug...Well, congratulations! You have a more decent Motronic system than on my 635!!

5 For Drew540i: There are a lot of posts in 6 series tech forum...If you are bored about this saga( more episodes here than a brazilian Telenovelas....), please, call yourself "out" and read the other posts; I will go on helping as better as I can....With the time I can spend on it...When  had problems with my 635 I had no net-connections and there were no big forums like this...Now this forum turns into a big help-board for a lot of people,and It's not good/polite to read replies of "bored " people...

Nobody forces you to read...

Francesco from Italy

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-December-2005 at 15:29
Originally posted by siscobmw siscobmw wrote:


1 BE sure that relays receive 12V from battery,
atfer You turn the key on position2

NO, YOU DON'T SAY..........

3 Here I need the memory of every 635 driver that
read this topic:When my OBC burglar alarm was
stuck off, the needle of my economy gauge was not
operating as usual..I can't remember if -with the
alarm on-the needle stayed on Zero and  moved to
max of the scale after I unlocked the alarm...or
viceversa. Actually my car has a flat battery, so I'm not
able to check what that needle does till
tomorrow(when the battery is hopefully charged)...If
anyone can go to her/his garage and start his
1982-1988 635

WHAT????!!

...Well, this man can see if the non start saga
depends from the OBC or OBC relays.....And also if
Motronic relays is fed up with a good dose of 12v
tension...



JUST LIKE WE'VE BEEN SAYING..............

4 I do not know the correct date of Your car
production, but some early Motronic cars had a 3rd
control relay: open the fuse box , look at those black 
rectangular relay (below right,with a lot of pins for
windshied washer/wipers...)....Is there a square one
near that?(well there are 2 rows of 4 similar relays in
the fuse box, I mean the 9th at top right..)...If it is in
place , You should have a look at it, if You have not a
relay, nor the wires in the connector plug...Well,
congratulations! You have a more decent Motronic
system than on my 635!!



WELL IT'S WORTH A TRY.........

5 For Drew540i: There are a lot of posts in 6
series tech forum...If you are bored about this saga(
more episodes here than a brazilian Telenovelas....),
please, call yourself "out" and read the other posts;




How many posts have I posted about this? I've
probably spent over an hour looking at wiring
diagrams trying to help this guy. All you've done is
repeat everything I've already said.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-December-2005 at 19:14
I just want to read that you've found 'the problem' & with all the help & advice you've had on here that you can finally have it running Ben.

I flicked back onto the topic hoping this was actually the case.

Incidentally, don't ignore the specialist route to solve your problem, funds permitting, of that I fully understand!

I've had a problem with my work Mk4 Golf & despite being in to a VAG main agent, plugged in to their diagnostics, no problems, constant stalling & pinking still remained.
Then the car went to a specialist auto-sparky, still no joy.

Whilst I was working away in Germany last week for the MOD, one of the lads got so fed up with this constant stalling that he took it back to our local garage that we use for servicing. They persisted & found a mechanical issue within the throttle control unit. Upon removal of a vacuum pipe the problem has disappeared 100% - I couldn't believe the difference in how it now drives, stall & pinking free!

They took great pride in solving a problem that even VAG couldn't fix, even more so when the new parts would have cost over £400 + vat........

Good luck Ben
My 635's.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-December-2005 at 03:49
        d.m.e. relay.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-December-2005 at 05:19
Originally posted by Drew540i Drew540i wrote:

Originally posted by siscobmw siscobmw wrote:


1 BE sure that relays receive 12V from battery,
atfer You turn the key on position2

NO, YOU DON'T SAY..........

Sir Drew540i...I saw a lot of nonstarting cars with 4pin relays changed and no start cause a burnt wire, different pin numbers od relays(number 30 51 86 and 87 were in differnet pins respect to those original relays):    SO I don 't want to skip obvious stuff...And I just wanted to do a sum of 6-7 pages of saga...

3 Here I need the memory of every 635 driver that
read this topic:When my OBC burglar alarm was
stuck on, the needle of my economy gauge was not
operating as usual..I can't remember if -with the
alarm on-the needle stayed on Zero and  moved to
max of the scale after I unlocked the alarm...or
viceversa. Actually my car has a flat battery, so I'm not
able to check what that needle does till
tomorrow(when the battery is hopefully charged)...If
anyone can go to her/his garage and start his
1982-1988 635 


WHAT????!!


When OBC alarm gives a problem (or relays give them:I have 4 obc relays at home, for my ex 1986 M635...just for safety...There's no one working, and one is brand new!!!)you can check needle of economy gauge....Probably you never noticed that needle movement when You unlock OBC alarm, with key o position 2...


...Well, this man can see if the non start saga
depends from the OBC or OBC relays.....And also if
Motronic relays is fed up with a good dose of 12v
tension..

JUST LIKE WE'VE BEEN SAYING..............

You said that,right.Then I tried to explain in a different way(and in a different language, as my english sounds terrible... )....I repeated it only for those who want to read only the latest page ...

4 I do not know the correct date of Your car
production, but some early Motronic cars had a 3rd
control relay: open the fuse box , look at those black 
rectangular relay (below right,with a lot of pins for
windshied washer/wipers...)....Is there a square one
near that?(well there are 2 rows of 4 similar relays in
the fuse box, I mean the 9th at top right..)...If it is in
place , You should have a look at it, if You have not a
relay, nor the wires in the connector plug...Well,
congratulations! You have a more decent Motronic
system than on my 635!!



WELL IT'S WORTH A TRY.........

5 For Drew540i: There are a lot of posts in 6
series tech forum...If you are bored about this saga(
more episodes here than a brazilian Telenovelas....),
please, call yourself "out" and read the other posts;




How many posts have I posted about this?

1 MILLION...You're right about this

 I've
probably spent over an hour looking at wiring
diagrams trying to help this guy.

Good....But every guys reading the entirely saga has spent one hour...

 All you've done is
repeat everything I've already said.

All I've done is repeat everything for lazy 6 series mates..with 1-2 more info ....hoping that my adds will help .

I do not want to bore you or to be unpleasant....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-December-2005 at 06:10
No worries!! This is even more frustratiing than if the
car was sat here at my house. I'd have it going by
now!!

Being Italian, you should know about dodgy car
electrics - I mean, St Magnettimarelli!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-December-2005 at 06:28

Originally posted by Drew540i Drew540i wrote:


Being Italian, you should know about dodgy car
electrics - I mean, St Magnettimarelli!

It's funny, as Magneti Marelli System on my mum's Twingo , never had problems(in about 10 years!).

Old Lancia and Thema, with Bosch systems , had the same problem of PHB10186 cars...BUT AFTER 2-3 DAYS AFTER THE DELIVERY, NOT 20 YEARS!!!

Now you can imAgine , after 15 years a fiat/lANCIA model was discontinued, how many gremlins those cars have...

And We do not have ITALIAN CARS ETMs....only a hammer and a strong dose of luckyness!My personal experience says:

1italian car with italian components=Oh, Lord...

2Italian car with Bosch systems= what a fuss !!!!!

3 Foreign cars with Italian components=reliable

4 FOreign cars with Bosch or other components= reliable

regards,

Francesco



Edited by siscobmw
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-December-2005 at 15:39

Joe Lucas = Prince of darkness

Magneti marelli = mephistopholes

Bosch = Bosch job?

Hmm add various European ingredients, simmer gently in road-salty water, garnish with eccentric wiring arrangements and obscure connectors, hide the correct circuit diagram, et voila-

your dish of 20-year-old European car is ready to give you merry hell...

enjoy....

 


~~~~~~~ Brucey   ~~~~~~
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