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Rob L 
Really Senior Member I 
Joined: 22-October-2002 Location: South East Status: Offline Points: 384 |
 Topic: Save the Silverstone Track DayPosted: 01-June-2005 at 09:00 |
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I've heard rumours that the plug may have to be pulled on the Track Day (Better Driving Day) at Silverstone this September (Monday 26th) due to lack of support. It's a real shame as it is looking like a great event to end the summer and it's a fantastic opportunity to drive the British Grand prix circuit. It looks like the curtains will be pulled if the club don't get enough applicants by the end of the week.
For those not wishing to track their cars the club were also promoting this day as a meet where members get the added bonus of having a chat and driving in a cavalcade around the circuit at lunchtime. There are also taxi rides in a CSL Bat and a works DTM E30 M3. I think that it would be a real shame if this event gets cancelled so come on folks contact the club office or Richard Baxter and make a booking. If any of you would like to attend but are not in agreement with the current policy with regard to sticky rubber etc, or have any issues please voice them now so that these points may be adressed. Save our track days..... Edited by Rob L |
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therealmccoy
Really Senior Member II 
Joined: 27-April-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 552 |
Posted: 01-June-2005 at 14:22 |
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Sticky Tyres! Has their been a policy review, again without informing people?!?!
James |
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Work Harder! A Million Benefit Claimants Depend On YOU!
E30 M3, The REAL McCoy! 89 M3 Now Sold 99 323i *FOR SALE* PC Probs?? Click here! |
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DAWIEM3
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 17-February-2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 489 |
Posted: 01-June-2005 at 14:47 |
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Rob, Sorry to hear they are battling, but I believe they now have to lie in the bed they have made for themselves. Nothing personal. Issues that have been discussed on the forum but have been ignored and left to fester, No particular order, Cost of passengers Cost of Spectators Sticky tyres Cost of the BBD Other track day organisations - Cheaper and better value for money. better comaradrie.
I use to attend many BDD and use bring 4 to 6 people with me but at the associated passenger / spectator costs I could attend another track day in stead. Passengers at £ 40-00 a head is scandalous. You don`t even pay that to watch the BTCC. It ended up a few who enter into the spirit of the club by bringing friends, ( potential new members ) family to the BDD ended up subsidising the the member who would turn up by themselves. Who now has the intrests of the club at heart. The above have all contributed and currently with all the outstide trackday companies the consumer is spoit for choice. I know the MLR club manage to hire circuits at reasonable prices and charge accordingly so it can be done. Anyway enough said, I`m sure others will add to this. Regards, Dave. |
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E30 M3 Road car ( Now in Hongkong )
E30 M3 Track Car S14 2.0L 2002 in progress E30 C2 2.7 Alpina E36 M3 3.2 EVO |
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Rob L
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 22-October-2002 Location: South East Status: Offline Points: 384 |
Posted: 01-June-2005 at 15:03 |
No, It's more of an open question where would it attract more people/be more appealing if stickies were allowed and are there any other suggestions/gripes which could improve the clubs track days. Personally i think that they should be allowed (as the majority of other track day organizers allow them) but maybe user's cars should display some kind of sign to warn other drivers that 'the car in front' may have more grip than you when they try to follow them into a corner. What i am trying to get at here is are any people straying away from the clubs track days for various reasons or are they seen as good value for money and a well organised event. Is there improvements to be made which will guarantee attendance over the years or are they already fullfilling requirements? I think that one of the main difficulties with organising track days is that you have to book so far in advance and commit to paying a deposit, yet most applicants don't book till last minute - so from a organisers point of view it could get quite twitchy until the day is full. Edited by Rob L |
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Rob L
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 22-October-2002 Location: South East Status: Offline Points: 384 |
Posted: 01-June-2005 at 15:15 |
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Fair comment Dave
 any more anyone??
I think this issue needs digging up and changes made, so lets get some constructive stuff going please lads? Rob |
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therealmccoy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 27-April-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 552 |
Posted: 01-June-2005 at 15:20 |
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I thought my post summed up rather well, my feelings when I called the person organising the Donington day, and found that my brand new £1k wheels and tyres would not be allowed! Without reopening this can of worms, quite a few people were fed up that this decision had been taken, without the courtesy of informing the members!
If you do a search on "sticky tyres" you will see how much of an issue this was - yet nothing was done about it... Dave has voiced some concerns that we all have, Track Days have become popular, more people are running them and with that, prices will come down. It is a shame that the Club has begun to suffer, I always enjoyed the Clubs BDD's. With regards to your point about having a sign, warning other drivers of "your greater grip"... ...Where will the signs be saying "Better driver", "More Power" or "Big brake Kit..." Lets use some common sense here. I mean no offence to you, James |
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Rob L
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 22-October-2002 Location: South East Status: Offline Points: 384 |
Posted: 01-June-2005 at 15:36 |
No offense taken dude - Yeah, I know it's basic but I'm just throwing out ideas (perhaps even daft ones) to overcome certain issues so that they can be worked around. The sticky tyre debate is one of many so why not open them up, find a solution and make the club's days work. It is a can of worms you're right but personally I'd like the see the BDD's back on track - what a pun.... |
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therealmccoy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 27-April-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 552 |
Posted: 01-June-2005 at 15:39 |
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Good luck matey
James |
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Work Harder! A Million Benefit Claimants Depend On YOU!
E30 M3, The REAL McCoy! 89 M3 Now Sold 99 323i *FOR SALE* PC Probs?? Click here! |
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SHEPSM3
Bavarian-Board Contributor 
UK Sport Evolution. Joined: 26-December-2004 Location: Bristol, UK. Status: Offline Points: 1934 |
Posted: 01-June-2005 at 15:39 |
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I agree with James, There shouldn't be any signs to say "more grip", nor really should there be signs saying "overtake", "brake", "turn", etc. People use the track to exploit thier cars abilities and thier own. If there were concerns about peoples ability to drive thier owns cars, then perhaps the day should be split up into sessions with experianced drivers going out at different times to not so experianced drivers. If people want to drive thier cars on the track then they should also expect the possibilty of damaging the car too. If drivers just want to parrade arround the track - so be it, but wouldn't this be better to just arrange a "Rally" like London to Brighton? A race circuit is what it is, a race circuit. You should be able to run whatever you like, within the circuits rules? There are too lots of other track day organisations doing these days, and I must say, they all seem to be extremely good value for money. I have never been on a BDD before, so can't really comment on personal experiance, but, the general feeling from what I can gather talking to other members about the days is as the above. I have done a couple of track days at Castle Combe with the BMW Car Club when I 1st had my old M3 in 1999/2000 and was looking forward to doing the one this year. It was advertised in the Clubs monthy, but it dissapeared, and when I enquired at C.Combe Circuit, they told me that they were waiting for comfirmation. I was dissappointed to here that it was cancelled. WHy was this? Anyway, no offence was meant by any of my comments. They were just a general feeling I had with regards to talking to other members. Good luck with the Silverstone event, although I must say the Grand Prix circuit is a little boring. BUT it is nice to be able to say that you have driven it! Paul. |
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y135/ShepsM3/New-1a1.jpg">[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y135/ShepsM3/New-1b1.jpg">
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jon90
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 11-January-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 653 |
Posted: 01-June-2005 at 15:42 |
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Rob.
I totally agree with Dave. We tried to discuss this many times and were ignored,we tried to warn the club they were alienating the very people that had made the club days such a success in the past to no avail. I must say though,I always found the BMWCC track days great fun and well organised,until the suits got involved. Jon Edited by jon90 |
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Rob L
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 22-October-2002 Location: South East Status: Offline Points: 384 |
Posted: 02-June-2005 at 07:23 |
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Anymore comments - positive or negative, I know there's a lot more than this?
How would you like to see the track days evolve? Rob |
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Robbie Bradford
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 16-July-2004 Location: Co. Laois, Ireland. Status: Offline Points: 2124 |
Posted: 02-June-2005 at 09:02 |
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I 'm not gonna waste much of your time as i've only done one track day but plan alot more in future in Ireland. The one rule that i don't understand is regarding R rated tyres. Now why are these legal for road use but not allowed at track days?? am i missing something? So for example, i could drive my car to the track with R rated tyres but not use them as originally intended, i don't get it, maybe i'm stupid or somethnig! |
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Rob L
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 22-October-2002 Location: South East Status: Offline Points: 384 |
Posted: 02-June-2005 at 10:23 |
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Robbie,
The debate about the sticky tyres is a long one - As James said, do a search and your find a stack of posts on this matter, it's not worth keeping mentioning but it's certainly been noted. I think that we all already know that the sticky tyre rule is a sore point with club track days - what I'm looking for here is some feedback on other issues too so we can try and do something and improve things :) Edited by Rob L |
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UweM3
Moderator Group
Joined: 11-February-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 5445 |
Posted: 02-June-2005 at 10:58 |
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Cost!
That's my only concern. Charging for spectators is a something I can't understand. Passengers yes, second driver yes. But spectators?? As Dawie already mentioned, the might be the drivers on the next track day.... And enough track time of course. Why 1 hour lunch?? |
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E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg.....
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Rob L
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 22-October-2002 Location: South East Status: Offline Points: 384 |
Posted: 02-June-2005 at 11:28 |
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Uwe, what's the standard time allocated for lunch on track days?
I cant see anything about spectators being charged on here: http://www.bmwcarclubgb.co.uk/whatson/BDD2005.htm Where has this cost been listed? What do you consider a fair price for passengers and how should it be structured. ie £40 for up to 5 passengers or £10 per passenger? Edited by Rob L |
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grant w
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 26-February-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 558 |
Posted: 02-June-2005 at 12:07 |
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Rob L
Full marks for effort , but i think your flogging a dead horse , as you can see by the response so far , everybody knows my views on the sticky tyre issue , so i won't dwell on that . I think the only way to make Silverstone work is to invite other car clubs to make the numbers up , the MLR invited us to Donington , i think 20 or so e30 m3's turned up , the VAG invited us twice to Mallory for there track day , so why not return the favour , if it's a insurance issue include BMWCC membership in the entry fee , just a thought . I don't know where the charging for spectators came from , i've never been charged for my wife to spectate , as a passenger yes , spectator no , Uwe asked why the 1hr lunch break , the marshalls need a break as well . On the whole i think the BDD's well run , still enjoy them , the two issues for change are track tyres for group A drivers , and open pit lane , neither of which will ever happen .. |
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www.redevom3.co.uk 1989 e30 m3 2.5 1996 e36 m3 evo , sold 2002 e46 m3 smg . 1991 Daihatsu 2.8 TD Work Horse Rust Never Sleeps . Tattooed Lady - Bearded Baby - there my family .. |
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M3Moose
Senior Member I 
Joined: 12-January-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 108 |
Posted: 02-June-2005 at 12:07 |
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I decided not to renew my BMWCC membership when I saw (or rather read) what was going on regarding 'R' tyres and BDD. It seemed to me that the powers that be simply did not want to listen to those that were attending the track days and so went off on their merry own. It was fairly obvious that if you alienate half of the track day attendees then at some point in the future there was (is) going to be a problem.
For a club to thrive it has to please its members, I would rate that most BDD attendees were regulars and therefore a sort of club within a club. Those in charge didn't listen to what the members wanted.........the members have voted with their feet. |
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SFH3L
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 03-October-2004 Location: Near Buckingham Status: Offline Points: 447 |
Posted: 02-June-2005 at 12:23 |
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I attended the CSL Track Day since the early 90's as a spectator, since I live a couple of minutes from Silverstone. I had the pleasure of driving the GP circuit once in my CSL, and boring was not a word that immediately struck me, but then again I have not visited the Ring(!). I have also been to Donnington in the CSL for the past 6 years or so, and enjoyed the BDDs greatly. I was never charged as a spectator, and would agree that to do so is more than cheeky. I think that £10 a head for passengers is fair, and that any more risks making the BDD (particularly the September one where we are looking for more of a family day) too narrow in its appeal. I have no objection to sticky tyres and/or fater cars. It is the duty of everyone in faster cars to make allowances for the others on the track, and the duty of those in slower vehicles to use their mirrors and drive with the same consideration. I think banning the sticky tyres was understandable but shortsighted as all it has done is repel BDD regulars and Club members, and make the BDD's all the harder to justify. I hope that the day is a success, as it won't be due to a lack of effort an anxiety on Richard Baxter's part, and I fully intend to be there. Perhaps the Club should write to all those who have attended BDDs and ask them whether or not they would accept a return to an "anything goes" tyre policy? I think the answer to that poll would be more positive than negative. |
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Sam.
the original "not for profit" organisation. 
Independent Financial Adviser In Buckingham My Financial Blog |
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John W
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 01-November-2002 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 630 |
Posted: 02-June-2005 at 15:16 |
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Well well well, I told you so.
The Silverstone day used to be well attended did it not? So what has happened? A lot of this is due to the sticky tyres debate. This debate has been turned on its head by the E46 M3 CSL....WHICH WEARS STICKY TYRES AS STANDARD!! So what should the powers that be at the Club do? Ban sticky tyres on the CSLs? It's a farce. And when is a sticky tyre not a sticky tyre? I use Dunlop Supersport Race tyres. They have a full tread pattern and a slightly softer than normal compound, but they're nothing like a Michelin Cup (as on the CSL) or the Pirelli Corsa. Is this Dunlop a sticky tyre? And who decides if it is or not? The sticky tyre rule has caused a huge breakaway group in the BMWCC track day crowd (sorry, better driving day). There are plenty of folks here who would support the Silverstone day if they allowed sticky tyres. The reason given by the Club for banning sticky tyres was regarding insurance. They were worried about folk like me pitching up at the track with a half-cage and sticky tyres on my E30 M3 and going 'round bends quickly. But my car was safer than it woud have been without the cage or the sticky tyres. These tyres make for predictable handling and grip. They are less likely to "go off" by over-heating. In conclusion, well done BMWCC for shooting yourselves in the foot regarding the sticky tyres issue. Anyone fancy seeing sense and reversing the ruling? Or is your stubborness going to result in more "better driving days" being cancelled? |
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DAWIEM3
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 17-February-2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 489 |
Posted: 03-June-2005 at 10:25 |
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All, I think we all need to be mindfull that there are BBD days that are reasonably priced and very well controlled, with the sticky tyres not being a major issue. The emphisis is on safe, considerate & courteous driving with tactfull but firm discussions for offenders. I think Nick does a splendid job at his Croft days demonstrating this and runs a slick event. It would also be appreciated if the organisers would discuss their issues and concerns on the forum so all affected can give constructive critism or praise. Yes you cannot please everybody, but the majority will either concur or dissagree with a proposed change. The club is here for its members first and foremost, and if the members or sections of the club are agrieved membership & events suffer. Likewise, organising events is also a thankless job as everyone likes to critise without appreciating the effort that has gone into the event. Most that critise have never organised an event. The organisers also want to enjoy the days with members but also have to protect the intrests of the club and greater membership. It sometimes means decisions that are not popular, but maybe at the time were necessary, have to be made.Its likewise also necessary that if a decision is determental to the club that it is recindered. It`s not a question of this was right, or thats wrong, but what is best for the club at that given time. Hopefully event organisers will read this thread and comment accordingly and hopefully we will all be attending future BBD`s and Silverston. Common sense needs to prevail, if BBD`s are to survive. Regards, Dave
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E30 M3 Road car ( Now in Hongkong )
E30 M3 Track Car S14 2.0L 2002 in progress E30 C2 2.7 Alpina E36 M3 3.2 EVO |
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Save the Silverstone Track Day
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therealmccoy wrote: