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B 7 VP 
Really Senior Member II 
Joined: 04-November-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1115 |
 Posted: 06-June-2005 at 13:35 |
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Goldryder says-- Which I agree 100%. I dont know about your Pod days----So why open my Mouth(keyboard fingers) when I DONT Know FACTS. I DO know how This club works , and have for over 30 years , dedicated "Doers" within the membership, dont expect ANY thanks, its a bonus if they get any. The BIG thing is--Got a complaint, DONT whisper about it--Shout about it--letters to Club Office & Chairman--Will not renew cos of -----. the Club does not revolve around the Computer Or the comments posted on this Forum --they are from ANYONE who presses a key --- If A Member letter posts or Faxes a Complaint to the office with membership No--it Starts the "Whats the Prob" point on the Agenda of the Clubs Board meeting. BDD,s are a very worthwhile part of our Clubs life, ----I started the FIRST-at Silverstone in the late seventies and listened to the drivers comments,as do the BDD "DOERS" of today, AND a comment to the Office/Chairman in writing to ensure that the comments go home to the "Buck Stops Here" point and that democracy still works in this Club--unlike the Slime in SW1. |
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SAFETYFAST
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Rob L
Really Senior Member I 
Joined: 22-October-2002 Location: South East Status: Offline Points: 384 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 13:37 |
Goldryder, I guess that's a little bit of what I have been trying to do. I was aware that Richard was trying to save the track day at Silverstone as it was looking there weren't many takers (this early on as usual), but also that I do feel that the way the Sticky tyre issue was handled was appalling for the reasons we are all aware of - No notice, explanation, intoductionary period etc. Personnally I think that the majority members of this M Power forum are a group of sensible (but car crazy), professional M power fanatstics who respect the dangers of driving both on the circuit or road with standard or highly modified cars. Yes, there are a view stragglers who go against this rule but I know i'm right in saying they are usually put in their place fairly swiftly! Now my Sport Evo doesn't have sticky tyres and I don't do many track days but I can't see why they should be banned. I also have also noticed that there are plenty of people on here who have drifted away from the club days and started organising group days with other companies because of the way the club handled things. Even though I do not attend many track days I really think it is a shame that the club is struggling to get numbers when there are plenty of great people on here who'd participate but I feel the club have perhaps let down. When Richard told me that Silverstone might be dropped I mentioned all of these things to him and pointed out that there are plenty of people on this forum who would attend but I felt that a few things needed to be kicked into place to make things right. Hence why I have been trying to highlight this on this thread for all to see. I also agree that that time should be made by the club to respond/ comment on discussions on this forum or am I incorrect that this is the official Forum for the the BMW Car Club UK. There is still a place for newsletters, the journal, AGM's and car club meets but things have also moved on little where we are now able to have minuted discussions 24/7 on the forum and maybe the club should make a note of this. So back to the track days - what I've been trying to do is help Richard by taking an unbiased view of what's been discussed on this thread and try to revitalise things to make the events attractive once more - I just hope I'm not banging my head against a brick wall!! Rob Edited by Rob L |
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B 7 VP
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 04-November-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1115 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 13:43 |
 NO--- All positive Stuff--MORE like it 
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Goldryder
Bavarian-Board Contributor 
Illegitimi Non Carborundum Joined: 02-April-2004 Location: Acomb, North Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 5301 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 13:49 |
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Well although no longer a driver, I do know where you are coming from. It would be shame on both sides if this ended up with the 'M' series lads and lasses going their own way entirely thus divorcing the club altogether.
But until attitudes change up above across the board, then you and anyone else trying to sort this mess out will unfortunately have a few headaches from walls. Despite what anyone else thinks, I for one hope you will persevere with this and keep the 'M' series within the club by some degree, as the marque is pretty much the architypal BMW to some people. Sometimes its like having a tug-of-war with an unseen opposition, damned hard work and often thankless too. Hopefully though things will improve in the communication department and the club officianados will see the benefit of keeping this series on side and get the problems ironed out once and for all. Like I said, it would be a terrible shame for the 'M' series section to divorce from the club in the event side of things, but if that is what it takes and there seems no alternative, then perhaps it might be for the best, in everyone's interests. |
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October 2-6 2008 - Houston, Texas - Long Distance Wedding
March 15-April 1 2009 - Transatlantic Cruise October 10-25 2009 - China, Korea, Taiwan & Japan Cruise |
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B 7 VP
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 04-November-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1115 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 13:57 |
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Goldryder----------Read FROM your post 14-22pm.------
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Richard von Bat
Groupie 
Joined: 30-October-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 95 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 14:50 |
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The Club is a democratic organisation, as has been mentioned here already, anyone can write to Chairman Jeff and it will be investigated so I propose that all those in favour of sticky tyres need to present their case to Jeff with the reasons why. This will do two things firstly show just how many people are seriously involved in the sticky debate - 12 have been mentioned but is that really so? Just suppose however that the question is put to the hardcore group who come regularly and 90% vote to stay with the Clubs present stand on the issue? I have discussed this with someone who attends the Clubs days and although he disagrees with the ban on stickys is still happy to come along and give his support. Another I know of who even though he has not discussed it with me does attend and no longer turns up with his stickys........ I agree that the situation would have been better handled had more time been available to discuss the ruling. However the same arguements occoured in F1 when slicks were dropped in favour of grooved tyres to reduce speeds. Jaque Villeneuve stated quite forcifully that it was a dangerous move etc etc. was it? Another of the issues concerning stickys - I have noticed at the Ring some guys turn up with their race cars and when the weather is very showery they spend less time out on circuit than the road tyred entries, not being able to make up their minds which tyre to use and trying to second guess the weather.......... Also has anyone considered the extra stress that is being put into all of the cars components by fitment of stickys, bearings, bushes the cars monocoque. Standard road cars are not designed to absorb these with stiffened shells and no roll cage. About Silverstone this actual event is open to non members. |
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richard
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therealmccoy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 27-April-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 552 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 15:14 |
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Richard, I am somewhat confused by this reply. Are you saying that there is a problem due to lack of members attending or not? It is exactly these types of replies that put us off writing to "the Club" in the first place.
1. This is NOT F1, they moved from SLICKS to GROOVED tyres. We use GROOVED R COMPOUND TYRES, which are ROAD LEGAL - Therefore perfectly acceptable in the wet and will out perform ANY road tyre in such conditions. 2. How many people are affected? Well, ROB L goes out of his way and risks the wrath of mistreated former members to try and help, then we get 4 pages of contradiction - followed by someone trying to tell us how to and how not to drive OUR cars. A couple of us have replied, but it looks to have got us nowhere... 3. Hmm, stress on the car, what about stone chips or wet weather... Maybe we should leave our cars in garages and look at them through little windows at the weekend?!?! 4. I understand lots of people spend loads of unpaid hours working to get these events up and running, and thank you I say. Nick has agreed to let us attend, I am trying to negotiate the A/L at the moment. 5. Maybe if there had been some sort of mention to the members about this stupid rule, we wouldn't have gone out and bought our R compounds... 6. It is now time for "The Club" to make it's mind up, stickies or no stickies - that is the question... |
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Work Harder! A Million Benefit Claimants Depend On YOU!
E30 M3, The REAL McCoy! 89 M3 Now Sold 99 323i *FOR SALE* PC Probs?? Click here! |
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Rob L
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 22-October-2002 Location: South East Status: Offline Points: 384 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 15:29 |
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Please don't forget that there are a number of other issues as well
as the sticky tyres. Cheers all.  Edited by Rob L |
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Howard
Moderator Group
Did I say thaaaat? Joined: 14-October-2002 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 735 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 16:14 |
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The topic is about saving the Silverstone track day. Don't worry any more as it will be going ahead, though it was about the tightest vote that I have ever seen in many years on the board.
What is needed now is for everyone who can afford to take part to do so. If you don't and the day ends with a great big loss, the club board may well decide that they will no longer support track days at all. There are about 150 or so regular track dayers (I am one of them, usually taking part at least once a year),out of a total of 4,700, so the other 4550 will no doubt shout loud if the event fails to break even. The board has voted in favour of standing the rap should it happen. Its now up to you lads to join in and pay the piper his £240 and have a great day. Anyone who wants to help on the day, run a raffle, give some free publicity or even buy a ticket, should PM Richard Von Bat 
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therealmccoy
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 27-April-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 552 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 16:19 |
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So the event is going ahead and you will ignore all points raised in this thread?
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Work Harder! A Million Benefit Claimants Depend On YOU!
E30 M3, The REAL McCoy! 89 M3 Now Sold 99 323i *FOR SALE* PC Probs?? Click here! |
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Howard
Moderator Group
Did I say thaaaat? Joined: 14-October-2002 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 735 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 16:55 |
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therealmccoy said - "So the event is going ahead and you will ignore all points raised in this thread?" No I will not ignore them, but will take note for another day and use them as I see fit. However, there are a lot of things to weigh up when making decisions. The board went along with the plan as it was assured that there were lots of guys out there who would support it. We know full well that most people do not commit themselves to buying a ticket until the last few weeks before an event, and in view of the work put in by the organisers, it looks as though it should be OK. A couple of years ago, we pulled the plug on another track day two weeks before the date it should run, taking a £2K loss into the bargain. On the day, even though it was cancelled, around 400 cars turned up to take part. Being a board member is usually a no win situation. If we please Peter then Paul shouts. Some people are never pleased, some never say one way or the other. Some shout whatever we do. We do put in a lot of time and effort for no reward other than the fun of doing it. Sometimes we make mistakes, and sometimes we have big successes. One thing is certain, whether board members vote in favour or against, when the decision is made, they all pull together to make it work, and most times it does. If you are a member, look at your profit and loss accounts and compare them with years gone by. Now can I sell you a ticket?
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Howard
Moderator Group
Did I say thaaaat? Joined: 14-October-2002 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 735 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 16:58 |
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PS - Forgot to mention that I do track days in my wife's 1989 320i convertible. Not an M car at all.
No disrespect to the wife, but at 63, a day on the track is better than s** Edited by Howard |
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Howard
Moderator Group
Did I say thaaaat? Joined: 14-October-2002 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 735 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 17:29 |
Last AGM attendance was around 38, of which 8 or nine were on the board, and most of the remainder had come along to collect club awards for various reasons. I was in Munich renegotiating the cost of being an official BMW Club, though I would rather have been at the AGM. As Jeff Heywood said to me later, 'We must be doing things right or there would have been more at the AGM. Quickest AOB I have ever had to run" So if you have a grouse, shout at Jeff, shout at me, or any other board member. Better still, come to the AGM and shout, but follow the rules for shouting (copy available at our office) As to board guys not having computers, I am one of them that does (four to be exact). I write the website. I asked Killian to start a forum which he very kindly did. I look in as often as possible, and when requested to, take action. I also spend around 20 hours a week on club business of some sort or the other. If you wish to take over my job then fine - I could do with a rest - or a bit of help, as could most board members. Email me if you have a Club related problem that need sorting. If I can sort it then I will. Don't just whinny on the forum.
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Rob L
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 22-October-2002 Location: South East Status: Offline Points: 384 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 18:06 |
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Some wise words there from Howard and as a club member I do
appreciate the free time that you guys spend on club business
Just to re-iterate some points which Richard Baxter clarified as the policy for the club track days which are a positive: * There is no charge for spectators - the more the merrier.. *The passenger fee is for the seat not per person so bring as long as many mates as you like *The drivers fee is for the seat, not per driver so you can take it in turns to steer... * Note: only 1 driver and 1 passenger are allowed in the car whilst on the track. It's a start at least. Edited by Rob L |
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John W
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 01-November-2002 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 630 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 18:23 |
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I agree with the fellas who point out that complaining on here isn't the most effective way of getting your message across. However that's a shame. It wouldn't take much for the board members to do what Howard has done and have a look in on the forum when it is clear that there is a problem. They don't need to be here all the time, Killion or Howard or Richard or whoever could tip them off.
To answer Richard's questions..... Sticky tyres are safer, not more dangerous as the club states. Sure, cornering speeds are a little higher. However the car corners more predicatbly. The tyre is better behaved on the track and doesn't go off when it gets hot. The car just feels more planted when you turn into a bend. Lovely. The sticky tyres may put slightly more stress on the suspension but I don't think the diffence will be that great and not enough to justify not using them. Sticky tyres are good in the wet, about the same as a normal tyre on a wet day and better than a normal tyre on a slightly damp day. Sticky tyrs last longer on track days than normal tyres. Sticky tyres can be bought fairly cheaply now. Dunlop D-01-Js aren't dear, nor are Dunlop Supersport Races, then there are Toyos that are cheap too. There are plenty of drivers out there that would come back to club days if stickies were allowed, all the lads from Bexley's gang spring to mind. Don't underestimate their numbers. The real reason for these tyres being banned was because the club didn't like the modified E30 M3s turning up with drivers in who they didn't really know. These guys drove, how can I put this......enthusiastically.....on track. Top brass in the club didn't like this at all, saw that more and more cars attending track days were going faster and faster, they got nervous about the club's insurance so they banned the sticky tyres knowing that these individuals would cry foul and not bother turning up again....which is exactly what the club wanted. It would have been a far better solution to enforce driving standards at track days for all drivers no matter what tyres they have......just as Nick Wright does at Croft. PS.....my Porsche will be turning to Croft up on Pirelli Corsas.....a great sticky tyre that also works in the wet and when the weather is cold. Oh, and another thing......nobody has answered my point about the E46 M3 CSL having sticky tyres as standard. Should drivers turning up to Silverstone in their M3 CSL (eg Gabby) be told to put normal tyres on their car? Is this what the chaps in M-Division really wanted? Of course not. |
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DAWIEM3
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 17-February-2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 489 |
Posted: 06-June-2005 at 18:44 |
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My, its amazing when you start to mention AGM`s, and a few rouge`s that all the committee members can finally switch on there computers and start to take note as the word gets round. There has been more responce and open and honest discussion on this forum the last few days then has occured on this subject the last 2 years. You are now getting open views on this subject, someting that was not asked when sticky tyres were banned. I discussed this ban ( or tried to )with a BDD organiser at the old BMW drivers club show at Donny Park 2 years ago and was told if you don`t like it go somewhere else. So I did given his attitude, along +/- 15 members. I actually told the club office that I was not renewing as a result of the sticky tyre ruling and were not bothered about it. So that said it all. In this day and age the forum is an ideal place to communicate with the participating membership, views can be expressed openly and importantly constructively, with respect. If changes are required to be made, set up a poll and see the comments, don`t just unilaterally impose rulings without a discussion as all it does is alienate the participating members from the event and club. I hope we get a good turn out for Silverstone, and the event is a success for the members, Richard and the club, but again the question is asked, are you going to allow R compounds and slicks, and if you are, this should be left up to the driver to decide what tyres he will run, or we will have another hot topic of what determines wether you can run sticky`s or not. In the long run this issue must be finally resolved in the intests of the club, I`m sure the decision will determine the participation of a number of people on this forum and in the club. Regards, Dave.
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E30 M3 Road car ( Now in Hongkong )
E30 M3 Track Car S14 2.0L 2002 in progress E30 C2 2.7 Alpina E36 M3 3.2 EVO |
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Richard von Bat
Groupie
Joined: 30-October-2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 95 |
Posted: 07-June-2005 at 17:04 |
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To move this debate on in a positive fashhion I see that Rob has asked specific questions re the track days and sticky tyres on a seperate thread so could we all please complete this simple poll to see what the outcome is............ I will be discussing the poll with the other organisers so we need real results to provide the facts. Thanks to Rob for initiating this. John - re CSL tyres I did have this discussion with Brian Bradley and Chris at the beginning of the year and it was agreed that the CSL should be able to use the tyres that it came supplied with. The point also about Silverstone however is - if you are a member and enjoy the camaradie that can be found within the Club then it is time to support your club with this venture. We can all tip in with our view points and ideas about how we would like to see things being run, that to me is right and sensible, and possibly on going but it will be too late to consider these issues if the events that are being run are not adequately supported and the clubs days are dropped from the calendar. When you consider that the club has put on track days since 1984, before so called track days came into existence will it not be a pity for these to dissappear? What I believe would be very useful (whilst the tyre debate continues on another thread) is for creative minds to come up with ideas and values that will automatically cause the event to become a 'must do'. It is not often that Silverstone is taken on by this club or many others? (at least that I am aware of). It took quite some negotiation to get what we believe is a pretty perfect date, i.e. good track temps - not too hot or cold, good light and on the Grand Prix circuit. What do we want to acheive: Members to come along who maybe curious about driving on track now or in the future to see what really happens. To treat the venue as a meeting point, even if they do not wish to drive on track. I can envisage track displays, members meeting to trade parts. The club shop to sell models and Club regalia etc. Raffles for future track days. Photo sessions so the day is recorded for posterity and private photo albums. Tuition by qualified instructors or the opportunity to sit as passengers in some of the faster/experienced Car/driver combinations. Please add your views and ideas.............
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richard
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DAWIEM3
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 17-February-2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 489 |
Posted: 08-June-2005 at 09:36 |
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Richard,
Silverstone has a large infield paring area. Could part of this be used for an Autotest, to add an additional dimension to the day. I use to organise and run Autocross `s ( as we called them in SA) for the BMW Car club of Natal and would offer my services to assit if you would possibly like to add this to the day`s activities . Let me know if intrested. Regards,
Dave. |
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E30 M3 Road car ( Now in Hongkong )
E30 M3 Track Car S14 2.0L 2002 in progress E30 C2 2.7 Alpina E36 M3 3.2 EVO |
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John W
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 01-November-2002 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 630 |
Posted: 08-June-2005 at 09:52 |
How nice. I wonder what their reasoning was? If we are to make rules about things like this then surely a decision needs to be taken saying sticky tyres should be allowed on all cars taking part or none at all. By excepting the E46 M3 CSL they have illustrated the farcical nature of the sticky tyres rule. |
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DAWIEM3
Really Senior Member I
Joined: 17-February-2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 489 |
Posted: 08-June-2005 at 10:16 |
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Beetlejuice, You like a dog with a bone. We are wanting to resolve this issue not put the fire out with petrol. John, I thought exactly the same, pity it was an E46 that hit the wall at Donny. Enough said. Don`t want to add this to the debate. Regards, Dave. |
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E30 M3 Road car ( Now in Hongkong )
E30 M3 Track Car S14 2.0L 2002 in progress E30 C2 2.7 Alpina E36 M3 3.2 EVO |
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Save the Silverstone Track Day
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Goldryder wrote: