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UweM3 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-March-2005 at 12:36
Do you really need the whole engine replaced? Is the "rest" so badly damaged? So what is it about the full BMWSH then? Doesn't count at all?
The broken face of the camshaft should be examinded. They can find out if the cam wasn't hardened propely or the cast was faulty. But even if that's the case, it has run 60k miles and BMW will for sure not replace old against brand new without compensation. And if you go for a used engine they probaly won't pay a penny!
Really bad situation for you.
E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-March-2005 at 04:18
The engine damage is to the head ie broken chain,exhaust cam snaped at the front betwen lobes and the break is diagonal, all the exahust valves have touched.They have taken the sump off there is no visable damage, but an engine of this type would need the crank inspecting also con rods pistons all need crack testingl.

I personaly feel that they would only consider a full rebuild, at least it will have 2yrs warranty unlimited miles.  


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-March-2005 at 15:00
Now completed on the discussion with bmw the total cost of the engine and labour, that is for the removal and strip the old unit for inspection and the instilation of new engine is £13004.00  BMW will pay a one off good will £5000.00 this is their final offer.  
   

Their is also a sercharge on the old unit £1200.0 + vat  which has to be put back together and returned  to BMW  they have also covered the cost on this.     
      
Hope to see you all at Donnington many thanks for your support.

     Stuart Gwilt.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-March-2005 at 10:04
Hi Stuart, I'm the guy mentioned nearer the top with the 'camshaft failure' over on z3mcoupe.com

Similar circumstances, 99 reg, FBMWSH, 22k miles! 3 service lights still on, very well looked after to date.  Failed on the M1 at about 70mph cruising in 5th as I put my foot down (in 5th still) to overtake someone..

Hope mine doesn't require a new engine!?!?!   Got a bit more news on mine today.

Basically mine wasn't a camshaft failure, i.e when they examined the car they noticed that it had come loose - but it hadn't broken - they then wanted the 12hrs labour to strip the head to investigate further, but I've had a second opinion on it and it turns out to be a more common main bearing failure at the crank.

So 1) I think thats why the cam came loose;  2) I'm hoping for a better goodwill gesture from BMW as it's more common;  3) I'm hoping the valves are all straight and the pistons untouched..  but we'll see.

Hope you get yours sorted soon as and again, I hope I'll not be needing to find 5k..

Rob

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-March-2005 at 11:32
Main bearing failure at the crank causes broken camshaft??? How?
Stuart, why do you want to strip the old unit (for cost!) if you get a new one anyway??
E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-March-2005 at 11:44
My goodness those are some big figures being thrown around! 13 grand to replace an engine? I'd be inclined to go specialist hunting, someone out there will have an M3 or Z3M that has had a bit of a rear end shunt, I'm sure you could have the engine out of that and replace your own for a whole lot less than BMW are wanting to charge you. That's just obscene! Such a failure shouldn't be an issue in a car with that mileage and full manufacturer's service history. I'd be making very loud noises at this point, don't put your hands in your pockets that's for sure!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-March-2005 at 12:08
Originally posted by Doive Doive wrote:

My goodness those are some big figures being thrown around! 13 grand to replace an engine? I'd be inclined to go specialist hunting, someone out there will have an M3 or Z3M that has had a bit of a rear end shunt, I'm sure you could have the engine out of that and replace your own for a whole lot less than BMW are wanting to charge you. That's just obscene! Such a failure shouldn't be an issue in a car with that mileage and full manufacturer's service history. I'd be making very loud noises at this point, don't put your hands in your pockets that's for sure!


Be realistic! BMW has offered to pay an substantial amount. What do you expect, 60.000miles old against brand new and nothing to pay for it?
If they refused to pay with an extended warantee, than I would be upset. That 6cylinder lump is not a bargain.
The whole things makes me a bit sad as the M-Coupe is one off the car I considered in the future. There are two with this failure here already!
E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-March-2005 at 12:24

Yikes! Don't nip my head off! Just made a suggestion.

Perhaps I am a little unrealistic. I just thought there must be some alternative to shelling out 8 grand for a new engine. See, my thinking is this. Horrible little Korean boxes can run for hundreds of thousands of miles without any mechanical defects. Other Z3M's can have long and happy lives. However, there appear to be two with the same fault in a very short space of time - to me this would suggest a manufacturing defect of some sort surely? By the sounds of it this car was never thrashed or abused, and a camshaft shouldn't just snap?! The whole engine needs careful examination for manufacturing faults.

As for the 60k miles, there is a clause called reasonable wear and tear that a manufacturer will try and wriggle through in circumstances such as this. Complete engine failure after 60k miles does not strike me as reasonable wear and tear. Stag owners in the seventies didn't accept it then, and neither should BMW owners now. I accept there is a big difference between a new engine and this one, but the fault is such an extreme one that this cannot be attributed to normal use - it's not as if it's just broken a rocker now is it?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-March-2005 at 14:12
Doive, didn't want to be offensive.
Basically I agree with you, but it has done 60k miles.
I would be the very last one saying no if BMW would pay me a brand new engine and I wish these guy's all the luck the can have!
Just wanted to point out that guarantee doesn't last forever. Were do you draw a line? You can't really speak from wear and tear if someting brakes apart which doesn't brake even completly worn.
Nevertheless, BMW will not replace something used with something brand new. Would you as a manufacturer?
Maybe he can find a good used engine, but no guarantee again.....
E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-March-2005 at 14:22
could a specialist not rebuild the engine and maybe even tune it up for less money
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-March-2005 at 14:38
Originally posted by M2_Harry M2_Harry wrote:

could a specialist not rebuild the engine and maybe even tune it up for less money


All inlet valves bend, maybe head casting damaged?
guides, seats, pistons, bearing shells and and and.
And biggest problem at all, find a "specialist" who doesn't make a bigger mess off it than to start with.....
With that sort of money I would only:
a) do it myself
b)get BMW to fix it with all the guarantee options
c) fit a second hand unit for reasonable money and take the risk. (but must be veeery reasonable price)

BTW how would fitting a second hand engine effect the value of the car?? I can imagine buyers pulling back when you tell them that a second hand engine is fitted...
E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-March-2005 at 15:06
Ref my problems, the camshaft isn't broken, the end cap came loose.  I guess this is due to the vibrations caused by the problem with the crank?

I'm no engineer so who knows
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-March-2005 at 15:07
I've had a search and asked around on other forums and mine and Stuarts are the only two similar failures (again, they're not identical) I've found.

The engine in the coupe isn't any different to that in the M3 is it?  so don't let that put you off of buying one in the future :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-March-2005 at 15:26

So, did the end cap come loose allowing the camshaft to be pushed up out of its bearings and snap the timing chain? That sounds very strange, even if the crank was vibrating it's socks off the bearing cap should not have come loose.

UweM3 I hear what you're saying. I appreciate the fact that it's not a new engine at 60k, and BMW do have to draw a line somewhere or else they will have people popping up with sick E28's and E23's! It just seems a shame that there is no sense of customer awareness here, a person buys an expensive car like a Z3M fully expecting to enjoy years and many miles of problem free motoring in it, then the engine goes and eats itself. To me this is outwith the normal description of fair wear and tear as I said earlier, but BMW are a business and they will get out of spending money any way they can. I suppose their offer of 5k is reasonable, but even so that doesn't begin to cover the labour costs incurred at the dealer. To me what they should have done is waived the labour cost outright becuase this seems like an engineering defect, and so the owner cannot realistically be held responsible for such a failure, especially not with a FSH behind the car.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-March-2005 at 04:34

Originally posted by UweM3 UweM3 wrote:

Originally posted by M2_Harry M2_Harry wrote:

could a specialist not rebuild the engine and maybe even tune it up for less money


All inlet valves bend, maybe head casting damaged?
guides, seats, pistons, bearing shells and and and.
And biggest problem at all, find a "specialist" who doesn't make a bigger mess off it than to start with.....
With that sort of money I would only:
a) do it myself
b)get BMW to fix it with all the guarantee options
c) fit a second hand unit for reasonable money and take the risk. (but must be veeery reasonable price)

BTW how would fitting a second hand engine effect the value of the car?? I can imagine buyers pulling back when you tell them that a second hand engine is fitted...

How reasonable is "veeery reasonable"?

Would an M3 Evo engine be a straight swap?

If it would go in with out too much trouble you should be able to find a low mileage example and have it fitted for £3K to £4K(??) and still have the old engine to sell on for refurb or keep for spares! 

I am no expert so do not know if it will work as BMW make so many minor changes when they install things in different models. However, if it can be done I think the price should be about right.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-March-2005 at 05:13
Originally posted by Lancastrian Lancastrian wrote:

How reasonable is "veeery reasonable"?


If it would go in with out too much trouble you should be able to find a low mileage example and have it fitted for £3K to £4K(??) and still have the old engine to sell on for refurb or keep for spares! 



£3k is reasonable and no 6 digit mileage..
Don't know if the old engine would sell for a lot.
I have seen damaged 3 liter M3 engines selling for £300.
Maybe keep the VANOS units as spare, or sell them if they are not damaged.
E61 520d, slow and buzzy but my wallet likes the mpg.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-March-2005 at 15:37

Originally posted by UweM3 UweM3 wrote:

And biggest problem at all, find a "specialist" who doesn't make a bigger mess off it than to start with.....

Or try find one that will take the job , I spoke to one specialist who told me i could not afford him   What does he know?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-March-2005 at 04:51
I will try and answer some of your quires the damage to the head was brought about by the chain failure, it snapped between links which in turn locked up the cam forceing it to break.

On inspection there was a split in the back of the rocker cover where a exhaust valve hit, the head it's self was also damaged the front bearing carrieres and a large peice of head casting had broken.

Onto the bottom end there was signs of piston contact with the valves
and lot's of metal in the sump, BMW were not going to rebuild this engine  to much of a risk there was unsean damage with out more indepeth inspection and at £86.+ vat an HR.

I felt that a car of this type and to try to keep it as origonal as poss it would have to be a new engine. Put yourself in my position when i come to sell would you rarther have used engine out of a scarp car or a new one supplied and fitted by BMW with documented history.

I understand it's big money  £8000.00 but it was going to be £13034
+ £1200.00 +vat surcharge.  I had a lenghty discusion with BMW through customer service. The first request was turned down flat because the car was over 6yrs old, untill the service manager made a verbal request.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-March-2005 at 07:12
new to this thread so forgive me if i've missed some of the detail

are you the original owner?

if so i wouldn't be fobbed off so easily

uwe is right in that bmw won't offer new for old but whether that is satisfactory under consumer protection legislation is a different matter

after all these engines aren't really run in until they go round the clock, right?

this is a quality product and you are entitled to expect more than 6 years/60k miles, right?

new for old is a concept that doesn't really apply under the sale of goods act - if you take a dvd player back to a shop because it's broken down you don't expect to have to contribute the cost of repair

6years/60k makes it a difficult argument but motor retailers have an amazingly high handed attitude in this country and behave as if the consumer is being cheeky because they've actually been using their car

they are not outside the reach of normal everyday consumer law

but for some reason when we're all faced with an argument re our cars we don't fight our case as energetically as we would if we were talking about a TV that is no good

perhaps people find the fact that big numbers are involved a bit daunting? perhaps that should make us fight harder

i've said before on here that if this sort of attitude to the consumer happened in france they'd be slaughtering goats on the streets

after nikasil, vanos and e46 m3 engine recalls i think a letter to bmw customer services copied to Top Gear, 5th Gear, What Car etc etc might make them think again - especially if you refer to all those other well known problems and use buzz words like aspirational brand, lack of confidence in the brand, unsatisfactory customer service, unreliable engineering - would be a ready made story for someone at Top Gear to latch onto - "BMW - are they the Austin Rover of the 21st Century"

Don't roll over and die - we're all pussies in this country when it comes to customer satisfaction
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-April-2005 at 04:13
I now have my car back it feels good not like my bank balance, i will still and try to recoupe some money back from BMW. Letters to top gear and my mate Tiff at fith gear.

Is any one in the stoke area or near-by going to donnington this sunday
 
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