Lost its grin factor.

Doive wrote: 100% agree Grobda. As I have stated earlier BMW came in like vultures to kill off Rover's aspersions of being Britain's answer to BMW (as some of the motoring press were saying back in 1991/2). What better way to take down an organisation than from the inside? Then when they had suitably starved Rover, they sold up taking everything worth taking, including most of the development cars. Why take the development cars?? Because if Rover had built them, they would have been able to pick up their market share and BMW are in the same threatened position in ten year's time. So invest all the inheritance in developing cars, then take them away with you when you leave. Cunning. BMW also retain the rights to the name 'Rover', lending it out to Phoenix and with the power to take it off them at any point should they so wish. Why retain a brand name? I don't know. It does annoy me when I hear people saying 'Ah, they should have let Rover die', or 'Who cares?' Well I do, and so do 6000 people in the Midlands if MG Rover sinks or swims.

OK, first off, I am 100% certain that BMW were absolutely terrified of Rover. And well they should have been: an awful mashing of bland Japanese cars that we so well-built, they would fall apart if you f@rted in them. I can see that it was definitely worth the trouble of buying them, developing some new cars that weren't based on Japanese taxis and chucking huge amounts of money from a profitable business into a very unprofitable one. Those cunning Germans.

Why take the development cars? Because they had paid for them. Hugely.

If Rovers were awesome cars that sold themselves, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but they're not. I hate to sound even more cold and ruthless, but a large proportion of the problem with Rover is the perceived build quality, which is largely down to those same 6000 people whose jobs are in danger.

BMW should never have bought Rover, it was a bad business decision. But you can't blame them for realising afterwards that it was a bad investment and offloading it. BMW are not in business to keep UK workers in a job; BMW are in business to make money for their shareholders. Rover wasn't making money for their shareholders.

B 7 VP wrote: BUT-- 108, 000 Germans would not agree.

Who cares? It's only the Germans.








(This is a joke, OK?)

 interesting  !!!!!!!!!! from some comments, the white n blue still builds em like they used to.BUT-- 108, 000 Germans would not agree.-- from their Poll answers to Auto-Motor-Und sport. Audi --A3 beats the 1 series AND Golf -2 to 1.A4 is best mid size at 38-9% from C -class MB with  19-6%.A6 with 30-2% over MB CLS and 5 series.A8 40% ahead of MB S-class at 15-1%.VW Touareg beating the X5.

Voters say quality, reliability, technology, and styling were superior to the rest.SO-- its Wake up time -Even if BMW sales are up 7% in 05.PS- watch that NEW Audi V8 RS4  do the Biz on the NEW v8 M3 at less ££££.

Edited by B 7 VP

test drove a leon cupra r chipped to 265bhp. I need to have it!

I haven't a clue!  That's an obviously baited trap so enlighten me!

Particularly as you own a nice shiny red Z1...!

spokey wrote: I guess I'll just have to take my chances, and I'll happily see any GTi who wants to tag along on a B-road of my choice.

The GTi would be in your rear view mirror every inch of the way.

There isn't a cat in hell's chance of shaking it off!

I have driven a 120d and a GTi - there is no comparison in performance and the GTi shod with the 18" Monza wheels would quite easily handle as well as any 120d.

More to the point, you'd be looking at the rear of the GTi very quickly.  There really is no comparison between it and a 120d.

I don't like VW's generally but I do view each car objectively and the fact is that if you take the price out of it (difficult to do I know!) the GTi is supremely good car.

Coasting wrote: Peter Fenwick wrote: Oh and the new Golf GTI has been very highly rated by all the car magazines. A much better by than a 30K 1 series diesel, IMO of course   (bet it depreciates slower as well!) I've driven one of these and they are very special cars.  But would I buy one?  No.  And a big no. The car had SatNav, leather and 18" Monza wheels with the DSG box. List price with options = £26,800.  Sorry, how much? It's a Golf.  I'd rather spend the money on a proper car - forgive my petulance!

Why is a Golf not a proper car. Also how much would it cost to get a BMW of similar spec and performance. If you want a 3 series it's going to have to be a 330. By the time you add on the sat nav and leather it's going to be well over 30K. The point is better made about the 1 series IMO.

 

Coasting wrote: Ultimately, I feel we're into the territory of each to their own.   However, BMW remain king of the crop where build is concerned unless I have been exceptionally lucky in buying the 3 best built cars we have ever owned in the last year.  Not a single rattle on any of them - and one is a Convertible remember - so that's saying something indeed!

Your right, we are.

I know a bloke who was after an E46 M3 convertible to replace his E36 M3. In the end he bought a Scooby WRX STi. Brand new about £25K compared to £30K+ for a used M3. He said people had warned him that he would miss the build quality of BMW, but in his words 'the Subaru is at least as well built as any BMW I drove'. The thing with cars is one person can have trouble with one car but another person might get the same car and have a totally positve experience.

BTW are you going for the record on longest post? LOL

Spokey, It's not just Clarkson who said the new Golf GTI is very good. I can't think of a single magazine that reviewed it that didn't like it.

Oh and Evo Magazine compared it to the 120 TDi sport (163bhp version) and the golf was quicker on the corners and in a straight line. On there test rack it was several seconds a lap quicker.

 

Peter Fenwick wrote: Well two things spring to mind here. Firstly what is all this rubbish about BMW build quality!! my e36 is no better built than my mates new Ford Fiesta, Niehter for that matter are the BMWs I was looking in the last time I was in the dealer. The other car makers have caugth up big time with BMW obn this score so it's no longer a reason to buy IMO. I knew a bloke with a Seat company car and it was very well built, as well built as his mates company Golf GTI in fact. Very comfortable and both with well almost 100K on the clock. In fact It didn't have any rattles at all. Not like my BMW and many others judging by the posts on this site. How many posts do you we see on here about people with new BMW that are having problems? Plenty.

You can visit any car forum and you'll see people moaning about their cars.

However, you won't find many car forums with owners of older cars as enthusiastic as they are on here - and that is testament to both the cars and the owners.

On the build issue though, I have to disagree.  I know AndyBoy had similar thoughts in respect of Japanese cars being as well built.

I can only summarise it like this:

When I bought my first E46 M3 Coupe, and indeed when I changed it to my current Convertible, I could have picked virtually any manufacturer going.

If the truth is known I would have gone for a Porsche 911 Carrera 4S if it wasn't for the fact that I also need a true 4 seater on the odd occasion, so that ruled it out.  The build of the Porsche was a good as the BMW, but not better.

I drove an Audi S4 during the selection process of my first M3 - it came a very poor second.  The build quality was not as good and the quality of trim wasn't as good (apart from that I didn't think it felt anything enough like a drivers car).

I drove a Mercedes-Benz CL55 AMG - it was utterly awful.  Enough said on that.

Bear in mind...that at this time I was handing in the keys to a company Jaguar, so I can say with all honesty I had no brand loyalty of any kind to go along with.

That brings me on to the Jags.  The XKR is a lovely car, but dated.

But it could look like something from the future and I'd still not have picked it - because it is Ford build quality.  Mondeo build quality (as the X-Type so aptly demonstrates).  Ford are nowhere near BMW build standards in my opinion.  Eons away from it in fact.  I've drive every Ford I care to think of and only the Focus TDCi has left me with a favourable impression.  So much so that we bought one.  But, it started to rattle very quickly.  Hence, my wife now has her 320d SE (a few more cars inbetween it should be said) - and it has no rattles and she loves it to bits (ok it's 6 months old but the other cars had all developed faults by this time).

Lexus - now they impressed me.  However, they don't make a car in the performance bracket I wanted so they were out.  Besides which, their depreciation levels are enough to send anyone running.

TVR.  I drove a Tuscan S from Hexham Horseless Carriages.  Wow.  What a noise.  However, I can't decide what made the biggest impression on me.  Was it the engine noise, or was it the horrid sound of the door trim coming completely away in my hand as I shut it....

But, 2-seater anyway.  However, I had to try one and I won't be going back to any TVR dealer until they start making their cars with goods other than those out of the left-over bins of Smoby.

Vauxhall.  Well we have a few of these on our company fleet - and they're cheap.  Build?  Hmm - I suspect we'll get more Fiesta in future...and bear in mind my previous comments.  I do have to say that the VX220 Turbo is a hoot - it's a shame I couldn't get out of it in less than 2 minutes...

Honda.  Now I've owned 2 of these.  The last one, an Accord on an S plate, was a very good car.  Plastic and tin though.  The new one is better, but nowhere near BMW standards.

Toyota.  They've actually gone downhill recently in my opinion.  Nothing more to say on that.

Seat.  I could refer you to a colleague about these.  But I won't, because he'll swear a lot!  3 new cars in 16 months - all lemons.

VW - the Golf is superb.  But the price?  Wow.  And the 1-series has better overall quality in components, I just don't like the 1-series as a total package and thats why I give the Golf the edge.  As for anyone spending £30k on one, well I agree it's time to consult a doctor...

Nissan.  The 350Z didn't suit what I wanted and it's overall drive was very disappointing.  In fact it was positively dull and unimpressive.  Build wise was impressive.  Probably the best of the rest, but the plastics still thud when you tap them.  Mine don't.

The thing I'm trying to demonstrate is I am the type of car buyer who would quite happily change cars if I thought a better car, in the category I wanted, came out tomorrow (though the wife might object!).  I don't offer brand loyalty for nothing - I only stick with it if I think it is due.

Some of the reports on recent model build quality has been much exaggerated.  They're still much better than Audi's and Mercedes in every respect of build quality. 

But, BMW took the lead by a very long way some years ago - so people are out to knock them just like they are Manchester United FC.  The empire is crumbling, blah, blah.....and how often have we heard that?

I suspect that by the time my next car is ready for collection I'll probably have decided to give up the 4 seats and go for a 911, such is its everlasting attraction to me, but only time will tell....

Peter Fenwick wrote: WRT the Rover 75, I know someone with one and he loves it. The MG ZS260 is not a bad car at all. It might not be as good dynamically as a 330 but then what other car in the class is. I would certainly have one, although not new.

Buying one used is rather different, and you have to be honest and say you didn't make that clear initially!  I'd still look around though.

Peter Fenwick wrote:  That's the great thing about depreciation, you get lots of used bargains. Anyone who's bought a used 7 will know all about that.

As another colleague will testify.  A £70k, 18 month old 730i fully loaded, for £32k...with 20,000m on the clock.  Then there are the older ones on here that I see regularly.  Even better value.  Can't disagree.

Peter Fenwick wrote: Oh and the new Golf GTI has been very highly rated by all the car magazines. A much better by than a 30K 1 series diesel, IMO of course   (bet it depreciates slower as well!)

I've driven one of these and they are very special cars.  But would I buy one?  No.  And a big no.

The car had SatNav, leather and 18" Monza wheels with the DSG box.

List price with options = £26,800.  Sorry, how much?

It's a Golf.  I'd rather spend the money on a proper car - forgive my petulance!

Ultimately, I feel we're into the territory of each to their own. 

 However, BMW remain king of the crop where build is concerned unless I have been exceptionally lucky in buying the 3 best built cars we have ever owned in the last year.  Not a single rattle on any of them - and one is a Convertible remember - so that's saying something indeed!

Doive wrote: Sure, the 530i may well walk all over it in terms of performance, chassisdynamics, ride quality and build quality.

Doesn't leave much, does it?   

Doive wrote: But I want to see MG Rover survive, so if I had the necessaries I would buy this car. BMW have a lot to answer for in the whole shambles.

Yeah, they should have just let Rover die years ago.

Coasting, check out this link here

You cannot tell me this car has no redeeming features at all? I would have this looooong before a new Bangle-designed 530i. I respect MG Rover for having the determination to produce a car like this, especially after the way BMW treated the company during their 'partnership'. BMW raided the corporate larder and took with it Land Rover, the new MINI and all the old brand names that ever meant anything eg Triumph, Riley, Wolsley etc. MG Rover were left with two brand names and a range of elderly cars, plus the new 75. Perhaps the money should have been spent on the 25/45 replacement, but I admire them as a bunch of petrolheads who have built this great car. Sure, the 530i may well walk all over it in terms of performance, chassis dynamics, ride quality and build quality. But I want to see MG Rover survive, so if I had the necessaries I would buy this car. BMW have a lot to answer for in the whole shambles.