Any BMW sleuths that can figure this out |
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Fushion Julz
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 27-May-2005 Status: Offline Points: 400 |
Posted: 14-November-2008 at 12:28 |
Sorry to hear of the woes...
A double-row timing chain is *very* unlikely to have jumped or even stretched...any stretch would be taken up by the tensioners in any case... The only possible explanation is that one or more of the teeth on one of the chain drive cogs has sheared...They do wear, but I wouldn't have expected it to be terminal at 145K miles... The Vanos may have seized or jammed...and this may cause a nasty noise and poor performance. I'd say it doesn't sound good for his quality of workmanship to have left a screwdriver under the bonnet!! Good luck with the repair and/or sorting out the financial mess... |
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1987 E30 M3
1996 E36 328i SE 4dr (Manual) 1992 E34 525iX Touring...SOLD |
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540 V8
Bavarian-Board Contributor Lick my badge Joined: 07-December-2005 Location: Running the asylum Status: Offline Points: 2280 |
Posted: 14-November-2008 at 22:02 |
Firstly, never try and understand a womans logic, it'll do your head in more than the car ever will! and secondly, the valve gear jamming sounds feasable, this would prevent some of the valves operating properly therefore causing very rough running. The light at the end of the tunnel is that it looks like with trading standards on your side I think you have a concrete case so here's to the car getting back into good health and also it proves a little faith can go a long way making things not seem so bad. Here's to some good news I hope! Mike |
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Current:E34 540i Touring 6 speed manual(Mpower bodykit & suspension)& Chrysler Voyager 3.3 V6 auto Previous:E34 530iSE AC Schnitzer suspension. E28 525e auto-Standard |
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daddy cool
Really Senior Member II Joined: 27-October-2003 Location: Sussex Status: Offline Points: 691 |
Posted: 21-November-2008 at 23:27 |
be very interested to hear the outcome of this one , unfortunately the problem with the specialst is that he's realized you have a very small amount of knowledge regarding cars and has been fobbing you off with allsorts of garbage. im going to try to clear things up a little for you here. you can not tell if if the head gasket has been changed unless the engine is stripped you cannot tell how new the oil is unless you remove the filter and cut it open to inspect it ( as long as the engine is well serviced it can stay a nice golden colour for over 5000 miles, my car for instance is due a service but the oil still looks like new) it is totally impossible for the valve gear to jam up and still allow the engine to run , cams are connected to the crank via a chain and if the crank is turning (which it would have to be when running) the cam would also be turning and if the cams werent turning the valves couldnt open therefore not letting fuel and air into the cylinders therefore the car wouldnt run. if however the cam timing pulleys had jumped a couple of teeth the valves could well have hit the pistons and bent the valve shaft locking them in a slightly open position or snapped the valve shaft leaving them fully closed ! both of which would result in a severe missfire but very little noise and tbh it is very very very unlikely that either of these has happend. if the car feels as tho it is actually trying to stop you from moving i would either point at the gearbox or even the braking system , both of which can make the noise you describe and the gearbox has the capability of making the car run badly . hth as i allready said ,im interested to know what the outcome is . |
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e30 2.7 cab
e30 325i e30 325 sport e30 318 touring e28 m5 e28 m535 e34 m5 e39 540 e36 318ti (green) e36 318ti (mauve) |
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Shannon
Advanced Newbie Joined: 09-November-2008 Location: Colchester Status: Offline Points: 24 |
Posted: 22-November-2008 at 10:38 |
Thank you for your interest daddy cool. Car is still with the BMW specialist. I telephoned him on Monday this week after the car had been with him for one week. He said that he would call back with an update on Tuesday. He didn't call. I called him on Wednesday and he said that he was "stripping the car down" and would call me on Thursday. He never called. The guy has clearly printed on my invoice "timing chain slight noise ..evidence of very recent head gasket change. Recomend contact previous repairer for investigation under warranty" I have never had any work done on the vehicle since I have had it so this is a puzzle. Do you think HE may have had the head off? As per your comments about the braking system, he did mention that he had stripped the brakes down after I took the vehicle back with the vibration an hour after I picked it up. (he had replaced the two front brake bars.) and that this could be causing the vibration while they "settled in" Funny you should mention gearbox (mine is auto). This is what I thought the problem was was when the catastrophe happened. As i pulled away (at about 8-10mph) there was an awful noise and the engine seemed to be stopping the car. when I stopped, the engine was still running smoothly and would rev up to 2500rpm quite happily. When i tried to pull away again I had the same problem. This time though the engine was obviously struggling and was badly misfiring. That is when I switched off. When the RAC man started the car it was still missing and he decided that continuing to run the car may cause further damage so transported me to the specialist. I would dearly like to be in a position of strength when I confront the guy (I have decided to give him until Monday 24th, a full two weeks) so I am very grateful for all your help/tips/comments so far.
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540 V8
Bavarian-Board Contributor Lick my badge Joined: 07-December-2005 Location: Running the asylum Status: Offline Points: 2280 |
Posted: 23-November-2008 at 21:01 |
The guy sounds like a right cowboy, I'd make sure he knows you have contacted trading standards (even if you haven't) and demand some answers on Monday. Sounds like this guy hasn't a clue and you should take the car elsewhere in future! Hope you get the right result! Mike |
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Current:E34 540i Touring 6 speed manual(Mpower bodykit & suspension)& Chrysler Voyager 3.3 V6 auto Previous:E34 530iSE AC Schnitzer suspension. E28 525e auto-Standard |
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Shannon
Advanced Newbie Joined: 09-November-2008 Location: Colchester Status: Offline Points: 24 |
Posted: 24-November-2008 at 13:28 |
Latest news on this is as follows: I have spoken to the BMW "specialist" after he failed to return four phone calls. He said, this morning, that he would have an answer by lunchtime. Phoned him a few minutes ago and he said: "I don't quite know what is wrong, valves check out OK so no problem there. I think that it could be a problem with the valve timing unit and this could need replacing but I am not sure. I will let you know by close of play today" Can anyone tell me what the valve timing unit is? Does he mean the vanos unit? I would be grateful for any help on this. |
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MBW1
Senior Member I Joined: 12-June-2008 Status: Offline Points: 132 |
Posted: 24-November-2008 at 14:18 |
Why would he have taken the head off? It is a good day's work to remove/
replace an M52 head. 3 hours? Never in a million years. You would only remove the head to fix a cooling issue and given that it's £100 worth of parts and 6 hours plus to do it..............no, nobody has removed the head from your car whilst you have owned it. Not a chance. It sounds to me like the head's been off to fix a problem before you bought it and it's come back to bite you on the arse. It could be a valve timing unit, it could be ANYTHING. It's an old high mileage BMW that's been apart a few times and now is the time to get rid of it. I wouldn't say either mechanic is a cowboy. The car frankly sounds like a disaster and the previous lash ups are coming to light. Yes, you can often tell if a head gasket has been changed - the clean shiny gasket visible between old block and head, the odd dab of Hylomar/sealer. |
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I don't have a carbon footprint. I drive everywhere.
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Shannon
Advanced Newbie Joined: 09-November-2008 Location: Colchester Status: Offline Points: 24 |
Posted: 24-November-2008 at 14:46 |
Update Specialist has said that upon removing the head he found that the valve timing guide has broken. He is ordering the parts and will be fitting them tomorrow. He says that he hopes that this may solve the problem!!!!!!!!! Does anyone have any comments that might reassure me here? I live in hope.
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Shannon
Advanced Newbie Joined: 09-November-2008 Location: Colchester Status: Offline Points: 24 |
Posted: 24-November-2008 at 15:00 |
Thanks to MBW1 for wasting his time typing I thought that this forum was for constructive comments. Might be wrong here, and it maybe that MBW1 just has too much time on his hands!!
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daddy cool
Really Senior Member II Joined: 27-October-2003 Location: Sussex Status: Offline Points: 691 |
Posted: 24-November-2008 at 18:29 |
anyway , back on topic, have you got a price from him yet? not only for the timing part and expected labour but the exploratory work allready undertaken ? Edited by thepits |
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e30 2.7 cab
e30 325i e30 325 sport e30 318 touring e28 m5 e28 m535 e34 m5 e39 540 e36 318ti (green) e36 318ti (mauve) |
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Shannon
Advanced Newbie Joined: 09-November-2008 Location: Colchester Status: Offline Points: 24 |
Posted: 24-November-2008 at 19:39 |
Thanks for being constructive daddy cool The guy has not mentioned any prices. Just the fact that he will get the parts tomorrow and will let me know when the car is done. Given that he has not mentioned prices prior to undertaking the work, I guess that he takes some of the blame for not diagnosing the original fault correctly. (maybe I am too much of an optimist). The bottom line here is that I dont (and never have) expected anything for nothing. I went to him for an opinion and ended up trusting him and letting him do the work. If he is reasonable he will accept that it is not an option to just throw money at a car of this age. If the car had needed a recon engine I could have got a complete unit fitted with 6 months warranty (via www.247spares.co.uk ) for £1200. The specialist said that this was not neccessary and I accepted what he said (wisely or unwisely). I can not alter the position I am in (£700 and 1 car down). I am prepared to put another £3-400 to get the car put right and if this is not enough I will go to Trading Standards. I have learnt lessons from this. On a brighter note I was recommended another specialist to take my wife's Z3 to for its 60k service (the Z3 is W reg special edition and is pristine). This new specialist has proved to be a really good guy. Went over the car with a fine tooth comb and it came back running like a dream. The service cost was £530 but included front and rear pads, windscreen wipers, airbag sensor, couple of bulbs, full written report AND valeted. Really good value I think. I can't really afford this car (but most of my good friends say I can't really afford my wife). Such is life!!!!! I hope to resolve this issue in the next few days and will keep you all posted. Thank you all for your help so far (especially daddy cool & 540 V8) Really great forum here. I intend to put some links to your site on some of my commercial web sites very soon
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Shannon
Advanced Newbie Joined: 09-November-2008 Location: Colchester Status: Offline Points: 24 |
Posted: 25-November-2008 at 11:10 |
Update on the problem Spoke to the garage this morning. He says that there is a plastic chain guide which has broken and that this is causing the noise/problem/malfunction. He is going to replace this today and see how the car runs. He also said that he has had to take the vanos unit off to get at this guide and that the unit has "a fair bit of play in it" He respects the fact that I can't just throw money at the car so suggests that we put the vanos back on and see how it goes. Question is: Would a vanos fault have shown up on the diagnostics unit he plugged in? From what basic information I can get my head round, this unit could give me the same problems I had right at the start eg: poor performance & MOT failure on emissions. So did he diagnose it incorrectly? I am not the sort of guy who wants to persecute the garage. I just want to understand what happened so soon after I picked the car up after repair. Does anyone think I could get a vanos unit from a low mileage breaker? (he is quoting me £6-700 for replacing this unit) or is this not an option? Again, I would be grateful for any feedback.
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Stone-IslandV8
Really Senior Member II Joined: 31-January-2003 Location: North Somerset Status: Offline Points: 3015 |
Posted: 25-November-2008 at 14:28 |
Try doing an online enquiry at partsgateway.
They're usually pretty good with quotes coming back asap. Click belowhttp://www.partsgateway.co.uk/presults/start.php?slctCar=bmw Edited by Stone-IslandV8 |
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Gentlemen I may not have a brain but I do have an idea
Past; E39 540T/E46 328CI/ E39 535/ E39 520/ E36 M3/ E36 318iS jet black Mtech/ E46 320d/ E36 318iS diamond black/ E36 318iS blue Mtech kit |
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Dergside
Really Senior Member II Joined: 16-May-2004 Location: Mid West, Ireland Status: Offline Points: 4000 |
Posted: 25-November-2008 at 21:35 |
I came across this recently when doing some research on a small problem with Mrs D's 323i - thankfully it was a simple issue, not vanos in my case. |
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Now: BMW 523i SE '00, 318i SE - e91 '07, 325i Coupe '93.
Prev: e46 328i SE Touring, 330Ci, 318Ci. e39 523i SE. e36 325i Coupe *2, 323i SE, 316iSE. e30 325iSE 2dr, 320i Conv, 320i 2dr, 316i. |
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Shannon
Advanced Newbie Joined: 09-November-2008 Location: Colchester Status: Offline Points: 24 |
Posted: 26-November-2008 at 11:12 |
New update from BMW "Specialist" I telephoned the BMW dealer this morning for an update. This mornings "story" is very much different from yesterday's. I will quote his words: "car seems to be running much better, but still missing a bit. I think that this is a result of the valves hitting the pistons when the chain broke. I think that we should get away with this though. After a while things should settle down and you might be ok. I will drive it up the road in an hour and then give you a ring". Now I know that my knowledge of modern engines is limited (I used to do all things mechanical on my cars up until about 1970, but I am giving my age away here) but I cannot understand how the engine run at all with a chain (presume he means camshaft chain) broken. His statement this morning has filled me with dread. Can't quite imagine what he means by "the car is running much better now". Compared to WHAT I ask myself, an old cement mixer!!!!! I guess I will have to wait and see!!!!!!
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Fushion Julz
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 27-May-2005 Status: Offline Points: 400 |
Posted: 26-November-2008 at 13:39 |
He may mean the Vanos chain...
However, if the valve(s) are bent a compression check will show that up and, whilst the car may *run* with a bent valveor two, it won't "sort itself out"! I'm not an expert on Vanos, but I don't think it is possible for the valve to hit a piston if the vanos breaks (someone may wish to clarify this, though)... |
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1987 E30 M3
1996 E36 328i SE 4dr (Manual) 1992 E34 525iX Touring...SOLD |
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Shannon
Advanced Newbie Joined: 09-November-2008 Location: Colchester Status: Offline Points: 24 |
Posted: 26-November-2008 at 16:00 |
Further update Picked the car up from the garage. The "specialist" told me that the bad misfire at idle would settle down after a few miles!!! The car was rocking all over at idle. as I drove down the road the oil warning light was flickering. When I lifted off the gas there was an almighty judder. A few hundred yards later the oil warning light came on permanently. Called the RAC etc, etc, and they suggested taking it back to the garage but I declined and told them to take the car home. I have called the garage. The guy said he had road tested it for ten miles and could not find any problems. (he must normally ride a rocking horse to have arrived at that opinion). Having tried the route of trusting in human nature I decided to change tack. I have asked him to come back to me tomorrow morning with suggestions for dealing with the problems. I also told him that I was getting an independant egineer to look at his work (I have done this and the engineer is coming tomorrow morning at 11am with full diagnostic kit etc, etc) My opinion now is that the guy is a cowboy and he just wanted his loan car back and to get rid of me and the car. He cannot be a good judge of character as he has got me completely wrong. I will not throw money at the car, but I will throw money at making sure he does not carry on taking honest people for mugs. Lessons to be learnt here, both for him and me
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Dave E
Senior Member II Joined: 27-November-2002 Location: Worcestershire Status: Offline Points: 173 |
Posted: 26-November-2008 at 17:09 |
I'm sorry to hear about your problems.
All I can add is that you ensure you record and confirm where necessary all verbal and telephone conversations by everyone involved with the problem. It makes it so much easier if and when the final stages of litigation are reached. I wish you luck in your endeavours. |
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Mick525i
Bavarian-Board Contributor Joined: 29-November-2005 Location: Dublin Ireland. Status: Offline Points: 1823 |
Posted: 26-November-2008 at 22:05 |
Feck...really sorry to read this thread. I get so p1ssed off when I read theses types of story. I had a similar experiance witha so called BMW Specialist It was a complete fiasco fromday one. Eventually I got rid of the car.
From reading this thread the faults with the car seem to change with every phone call...... :( Anyhow get trading standards on to him this sort of thing is just not on. Looking forward to hear what happens.. Finger crossed for you. Mick |
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Cheers
Mick BMW E21 318 1980 BMW E39 525i 2002 MTech VW Golf Gti 2003 |
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daddy cool
Really Senior Member II Joined: 27-October-2003 Location: Sussex Status: Offline Points: 691 |
Posted: 27-November-2008 at 18:34 |
what did the engineer uncover today ?
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e30 2.7 cab
e30 325i e30 325 sport e30 318 touring e28 m5 e28 m535 e34 m5 e39 540 e36 318ti (green) e36 318ti (mauve) |
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