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foxworth 
Groupie
Joined: 03-January-2006
Location: London, England
Status: Offline
Points: 89
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 Posted: 11-January-2006 at 08:49 |
 bhp555 wrote:
.....let's keep this factual......
the e36 m3 engine is a souped up 325i engine - a splendid engine no doubt, but not a Motorsport engine ........what!!!
....... |
i guess if you were referring to the US M3, then you would be closer to say its a souped up 325...?
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T.J.
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 22-September-2003
Location: Cork, Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 2332
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Posted: 11-January-2006 at 08:50 |
Nice line up, Foxworth (worth more than 2c too I bet  )
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Mazda 6 MPS
S1 Elise 135 Sport
Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon
Formerly E39 TDS, E36 M3, E36 328i, E34 525i, E34 518i
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DAM998
Senior Member I
Joined: 05-April-2004
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 116
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Posted: 11-January-2006 at 08:51 |
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I agree 100% for sure than the E36 is a proper M-Car. All I was saying earlier is it is 'similar' to an 328i Sport, which it is, but its still different enough to warrant being called M car. They are great cars [way better than all its competitors] and at todays prices a total bargain...
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foxworth
Groupie
Joined: 03-January-2006
Location: London, England
Status: Offline
Points: 89
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Posted: 11-January-2006 at 08:58 |
i raced a 328i in a straight line when i had the 3.0L M3, and he stayed with me all the way to 100 - (we were on a private airfield of course  )
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DAM998
Senior Member I
Joined: 05-April-2004
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 116
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Posted: 11-January-2006 at 10:08 |
foxworth wrote:
i raced a 328i in a straight line when i had the 3.0L M3, and he stayed with me all the way to 100 - (we were on a private airfield of course ) |
yeah, comon as much these private airfields, everyone has one these days
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T.J.
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 22-September-2003
Location: Cork, Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 2332
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Posted: 11-January-2006 at 10:15 |
@ Foxworth - Really?!? That's not too encouraging (if I change to one  - if I stick with the 328i then tis  all round! ) - was it a rolling start or waa?
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Mazda 6 MPS
S1 Elise 135 Sport
Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon
Formerly E39 TDS, E36 M3, E36 328i, E34 525i, E34 518i
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BM Fan
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 19-January-2004
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 1054
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Posted: 11-January-2006 at 10:25 |
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I suppose they're are several arguement going on here - performance,
pedigree, racing history etc. So I'm going to play the village
idiot here and ask a few questions
E30 - proven racing history in various guise and engine sizes but and correct me if I am wrong it was always a 4 cylinder S14???
E36 - can someone share this as I'm going to put my hand up and say I don't know anything about this side of the E36 M3???
E46 - as far as I know and again am far from an expert but the one I hear most about is the GTR which I think is a V8???
So I suppose the real thing is to forget about comparisons between cars
from different eras and generations and look at its peers at the
time. Apparently we all know a Sport Ka is quicker tha an E30 M3
and that a 535D laps exactly the same as an E46 M3 around the Top Gear
test track.......... etc etc.
The best point about the Motorsport history is that back in the late
80's any car entered had to be a production build and it looks like BMW
built the race car first and then went sh1t... to enter we have to put
x amount of these on the public roads - brilliant for anyone at the
time that could afford one (they could buy a real race car).
Then everyone sees loads of money coming in, straight away and I
believe this is the case with everything, marketing gets involved and
starts to maximize the cash cow. After all this is a business and
nothing else.
All M cars are better than their immediate peers at that period of
time, they have better technology, components etc etc, but are they all
race cars - I don't believe they are. My M owners manual had a
paragraph in it about racing and it did not tell you how to race it but
instead to contact the dealer to make the necessary technical changes
or something to that effect.
Therefore any M is better than its immeadiate smaller brother at that
time and should be taken as the best possible compromise between raod
and track use with the bias towards the road. The only race cars for
the raod nowadays are the small build shops and they have fair amount
of commercialisim behind them also - Caterham, Westfield, Ariel etc etc
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Martin
In BMW exile at the moment (Shame on me for lurking!!!)
Previous Models
2001 E39 520i Auto
1996 E36 M3 Evo Individual
1996 E36 328i Coupe
1997 E36 318i Conv
1992 E36 316i Sln
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darren s
Groupie
Joined: 04-December-2004
Location: york/lilla edet sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 81
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Posted: 11-January-2006 at 10:41 |
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get real will you, if the 328 was so good and so fast why did they bother to make an m3?the 328 that you raced was maybe tuned a little.A standard m3 will blow a standard 328 into the weeds,look at the stats for the 0-100 times,its no contest
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m3 evo
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Robbie Bradford
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 16-July-2004
Location: Co. Laois, Ireland.
Status: Offline
Points: 2124
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Posted: 11-January-2006 at 11:06 |
All M3's - E30, E36 and E46 - have proven race pedigree. I honestly believe the BMW still build cars like this to race as it's a big part of the heritage of the brand and it's not purely a marketing exercise. Lets face it most buyers of new M power cars could care less about the racing pedigree of their new purchase but M powered cars are still the ultimate driving machine IMHO. Fair enough the new M5 and M6 have no racing pedigree but imagine seeing the new M6 racing in the German DTM series, now who wouldn't want to see that!
I'm not gonna listen to anymore of this sportKa nonsense and the 535D being as fast as an M3. Strap a twin turbo to an M3 and see how fast the diesel is then. Lets face it diesel cars are becomming more and more attractive but who wants one, furthermore i doubt we'll ever see one in official Mpower guise. I prefer to compare like with like rather than see people get excited about some nasty little city run about being able to stay with an E30 M3.
I'll stick with my normally aspirated 3.0 E36, it's everything i need in a car and more, i bought for the driving experience and not for the badge, sure i don't need to drive an M3 but i wouldn't be without it now. Some ricer boys, TDi's and even the odd washing machine might be able to cut me up on a busy motorway, well you know what, best of luck to them.
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foxworth
Groupie
Joined: 03-January-2006
Location: London, England
Status: Offline
Points: 89
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Posted: 11-January-2006 at 11:19 |
darren s wrote:
get real will you, if the 328 was so good and so fast why did they bother to make an m3?the 328 that you raced was maybe tuned a little.A standard m3 will blow a standard 328 into the weeds,look at the stats for the 0-100 times,its no contest |
exhaust only i believe, but then mine had no cat and an exhaust - was a 2nd gear rolling start off a roundabout on the airfield.
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sleeper
Really Senior Member II
Original and STILL best
Joined: 26-March-2004
Location: East Sussex/Kent border
Status: Offline
Points: 2098
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Posted: 11-January-2006 at 12:34 |
posh airfield yours, mine only has traffic lights....
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BM Fan
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 19-January-2004
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 1054
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Posted: 11-January-2006 at 14:52 |
With respect to the Ka and diesel comments, I was merely noting the
fact that there is absolutely no relevence in comparing cars from
different periods (even a few years apart as the technology moves so
fast). It is a completely pointless exercise and shows the
complete irrelevance on any tests.
Quite cleary I state that the M versions were the top of their class at
the time when they were built. I also think that the technology
in any previous M version makes it down the gene pool to the next model
hence closing the technology gap between the last M version and the new
model series coming up. I think the 330 E46 has twin Vanos that
was pioneered on the E36 M3 Evo for example.
My previous post above was intended to clear the topic a little by
hopefully getting someone else with more of the racing knowledge /
history to expand on the merits of each series and any racing they were
involved in. That way all the owners could benefit from
understanding the history associated with each model.
If you own an M, enjoy it as it was the best produced by BMW at that
time and forget about what anybody else thinks. If pure
performance is your only measure then if you want the best you may need
to remortgage your house and get on the waiting list for the E90 M3 as
that will be quicker, it has to be.
As for the 328 insight, I don't think it has been said anywhere that it
as good as the M, what has been said is that in everyday driving and up
to 90 or so its is the closest comparison to the M in that model series.
The great things about cars is that everyone has their own opinions and
that promotes good and thoughtful discussion a bit like this thread.
I'll leave (for now) with one thought just to open up a can worms completely.............
if the M series was / is so good - why do we all spend thousands on improving what apparently is the "best"????
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Martin
In BMW exile at the moment (Shame on me for lurking!!!)
Previous Models
2001 E39 520i Auto
1996 E36 M3 Evo Individual
1996 E36 328i Coupe
1997 E36 318i Conv
1992 E36 316i Sln
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bhp555
Senior Member II
Joined: 16-February-2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 176
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Posted: 11-January-2006 at 15:47 |
I hope this comment is said im jest as if you really think this is the case then you are ...., well, full of it 
I was being generous to the e36 328is when I said an e30 318is had as much in common with an e30M3 as a 328is had with an M3...........if the 328is was even slightly close, I would have drawn a comparison using the Italian 320is e30......
...for the record....respect is due to the 328is....it is a fantstic car, just not as able or as fast as the M, but a fantastic car none the less......
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T.J.
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 22-September-2003
Location: Cork, Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 2332
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Posted: 12-January-2006 at 04:42 |
... and anyway, everyone knows the E34 M5 is the best M-powered car made. Ever.
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Mazda 6 MPS
S1 Elise 135 Sport
Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon
Formerly E39 TDS, E36 M3, E36 328i, E34 525i, E34 518i
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Jonners
Really Senior Member II
Joined: 23-September-2003
Status: Offline
Points: 601
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Posted: 12-January-2006 at 05:43 |
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c'mon guys, let's go back to basics and not get tangled up with lack of knowledge/personal preferences/my car's faster than yours/respect is due etc etc...
the interesting topic at issue here is the query over whether the e36 m3 was felt by the man himself to be an M car at the relevant time
so let's forget about our own personal views on what M means NOW
at the e36 m3's launch there was a change in direction away from what the M badge stood for
whether that's a good thing or a bad thing depends on your preferences - and, let's face it, which car you own - but please let's not reinvent history and pretend that there wasn't a change in direction just because you think the e36 m3 is a good car
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M3DTM
Senior Member II
Joined: 04-July-2005
Location: The Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 233
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Posted: 12-January-2006 at 07:58 |
Jonners wrote:
the interesting topic at issue here is the query over whether the e36 m3 was felt by the man himself to be an M car at the relevant time
so let's forget about our own personal views on what M means NOW
at the e36 m3's launch there was a change in direction away from what the M badge stood for |
  
That is exactly why I posted this quote. A man can fall in love with more than one woman...
John
Edited by M3DTM
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A properly sorted E30 M3 is still 'King of the Ring'
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T.J.
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 22-September-2003
Location: Cork, Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 2332
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Posted: 12-January-2006 at 13:51 |
@ M3DTM: As a buddies dad said once: "Don't love one; Love them all"
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Mazda 6 MPS
S1 Elise 135 Sport
Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon
Formerly E39 TDS, E36 M3, E36 328i, E34 525i, E34 518i
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T.J.
Bavarian-Board Contributor
Joined: 22-September-2003
Location: Cork, Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 2332
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Posted: 12-January-2006 at 14:28 |
okey dokey ~ To bring it all into a "relevant @ the time" context!
Dug out Autocar 11th August 1993 copy with "Best Handling Cars of 1993" feature.
In the Coupe corner we had an M3, a Supra, and a Porsche 968 Clubsport.
The track was Goodwood, on an overcast day with a damp circuit.
Roadtesters comments on the M3 were:
FOR: 1st class engine, towering grip, impressive brakes, sheer speed.
AGAINST: Tricky right @ the limit, poor steering, chassis lacks feedback.
TRACK NOTES: Blinding traction out of chicane. Oversteer @ Fordwater & intolerance of dip @ Madgwick put hearts in mouth more than once.
John Miles comments @ the time were:
1st BMW with 'Z' axle I've driven, & rear end is brilliant compared with anything before, even accepting unequal front/rear tyre fitment. No more swinging oversteer & medioce traction. Engine is glorious (best engine award) with soaring power delivery & chassis is extremely well behaved with slight understeer (unless stupidly provoked @ low speed) & very well damped motion. This softer M3 is more to my taste. Steering isn't best feature, with poor response & feedback as cornering loads build up plus a big 'hole' in response off centre. Vies with Porsche for braking ability.
The overall review:
A mighty machine of course, but not as effusively reviewed as the old model. Despite the seamless power of 286bhp 3L engine and impressive grip of the new multi-link rear end, it feels softer and less involving than the track-bred old model. Effortless road car of course. On the track you couldn't argue with the cars stability, grip, traction, or its sheer speed out of corners. Or its brakes (best of all, if the Porsches weren't). Our arguement was with the lack of feel through the Servotronic steering, made worse by the sheer diameter of the wheel, which contains an airbag. Lap times show how quick the car is, but the old M3's soul has been allowed to escape. So fast, so safe. Huge power & new rear suspension improve overall ability, but uninspiring steering limits character.
John Miles' laptimes for the cars were as follows:
Lotus Sport 300 ~ 1:33:14 @ 107.2mph avg
Toyota Supra TT (4 speed auto)~ 1:34:95 @ 105.8mph avg
BMW M3 ~ 1:35:11 @ 105.7mph avg
Honda NSX ~ 1:35:91 @ 105mph avg
Porsche 968 CS 1:35:94 @ 105mph avg
Ferrari 348tb ~ 1:37:48 @ 103.9mph avg
Peugeot 205GTi ~ 1:48:25 @ 96.4mph avg
Vauxhall Corsa 1:48:80 @ 96mph avg
Citroen ZX 16v ~ 1:50:28 @ 95mph avg
Caterham 7 HPC ~ 1:40:84 @ 101.4mph avg
It must be noted that John Miles did (does?) alot of Lotus chassis development work and was an ex Lotus F1 driver. Lap times were also not of the "flat chat kind this year, but brisk times with the accent on consistency"
Edited by T.J.
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Mazda 6 MPS
S1 Elise 135 Sport
Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon
Formerly E39 TDS, E36 M3, E36 328i, E34 525i, E34 518i
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Eamo
Moderator Group
Joined: 13-May-2003
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 3450
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Posted: 12-January-2006 at 14:46 |
but we all know the e30 m3 is the best!!
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darren s
Groupie
Joined: 04-December-2004
Location: york/lilla edet sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 81
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Posted: 12-January-2006 at 14:56 |
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best at what?
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m3 evo
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E36 M3 officially not really an M-car